Italian Dodecanese Post-World War 2???

As the title implies, is this possible for the Italians to cling onto these islands or would it require earlier POD's???

By the way, for those who do not know German garrisons managed to hold onto the islands til the end of the war unlike mainland Greece, much like the Channel islands.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Easy: have the Axis win the war.

But I assume you're talking about Italy keeping the islands in an Allied victory TL. I suppose it might have been possible for the Italians to try and get a commitment from the Allies that they would keep the islands in return for switching sides in 1943, but at that point they were really in no position to bargain. I don't see it as very likely.
 

J.D.Ward

Donor
I think you want an earlier POD, probably with both the other claimants, Greece and Turkey, supporting the Axis.
 
Easy: have the Axis win the war.
Not necessary.
WW2 goes as OTL, but at the end we have an independent rather that a pro-NATO turkey.
with turkey strictly neutral and greece in peril of a communist revolution (as in OTL), americans need a naval base near the dardanelles to control the strait and hamper the possibility of operational movement of a soviet fleet in the mediterranean sea.
thus the dodecanese.
In principle the thing could work also giving dodecanese to greece and taking greece into NATO, but if the peril of a communist coup is high maybe an italian solution (maybe a mandate such as in post war somalia) is preferible
 
In principle the thing could work also giving dodecanese to greece and taking greece into NATO, but if the peril of a communist coup is high maybe an italian solution (maybe a mandate such as in post war somalia) is preferible
Not at all. In this scenario the most logical solution would be making Rhodes and the dodecanese an indipendant nation, rather than leaving them into italian hands.

To have the dodecanes and Rhodes italian you have to butterfly away italian partecipation to war on axis side. A neutral or a pro-Allies Italy could retain the islands, even though this would lead later to conflicts with Greece or Turkey.
 
Not at all. In this scenario the most logical solution would be making Rhodes and the dodecanese an indipendant nation, rather than leaving them into italian hands.

To have the dodecanes and Rhodes italian you have to butterfly away italian partecipation to war on axis side. A neutral or a pro-Allies Italy could retain the islands, even though this would lead later to conflicts with Greece or Turkey.
Why not?
Italy DID receive the mandate on somalia after WW2, even if on the losing side.
a similar accord could be arranged on the dodecanese.
the official motivation would be transition towards an independent state (or greek sovereignity).
the real reason would be wait the situation in greece to stabilize on pro-NATO lines (or, to freeze the question if greeks becomes red)
 
Why not?
Italy DID receive the mandate on somalia after WW2, even if on the losing side.
a similar accord could be arranged on the dodecanese.
the official motivation would be transition towards an independent state (or greek sovereignity).
the real reason would be wait the situation in greece to stabilize on pro-NATO lines (or, to freeze the question if greeks becomes red)
Because Greece had a claim on those islands and was on the winner's side?
Somalia was given as a trust territory to Italy because there weren't any other possibility, since it lacked the very basic infrastructure to keep up a goverment. Note that Ethiopia and Lybia didn't follow that route.

Even if the allies were concerned on a possible Red Greece, they woulkd have not given the islands to Italy, they would have simply kept them under the rule of the ally which "liberated" the dodecanese (UK, if I remember well). Probably they would have kept the islands till 1949, like many other ex-colonies (Somalia included), after that... well indipendence.

By the way, when the OP said italian dodecanese, I meant it as the islands being an integral part of Italy, not a temporary possession.

And not forget that Italian have Greek heritage (Magna Grecia).
Recentes studies said that the 88% of the population in the south of Italy have a genetic greek heritage ).
Syracuse,Naples,Taranto,and many,many others Italian cities are Greeks than Rhodes.
Indeed, but does it even matter?
 
Indeed, but does it even matter?
As the Greeks would say - "nai" (yes). The Fascists tried to "Italianize" the island and basically constrained the operations of the Orthodox Church. If Italy maintains the Dodecanese, expect calls for "enosis" (union w/Greece) to become very loud in TTL.
 
As the Greeks would say - "nai" (yes). The Fascists tried to "Italianize" the island and basically constrained the operations of the Orthodox Church. If Italy maintains the Dodecanese, expect calls for "enosis" (union w/Greece) to become very loud in TTL.
But if the democratic government of Italy ensures full respect of rights,language,culture and with the economic rebirth in post war years also leads wealth and economic wellness?
And with radio and television said less or more this:
"Folks,we have the same heritage (we are the west greeks and descend by the same ancestors),we have liberated you form Turkish,
and now we give to you wellness and the our same democratics rights;
we are one same people".
This change something?
 
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But if the democratic government of Italy ensures full respect of rights,language,culture and with the economic rebirth in post war years also leads wealth and economic wellness?
Which they did not under the Fascists and, in OTL, didn't do under a democratic government within their own country? In OTL, under both the Fascists and in the post-war DC government and beyond, there was pretty much only one language recognized - Italian. I don't see why any Italian government in TTL would not want to do the same - hence you'd get loud calls for enosis.

And with radio and television said less or more this:
"Folks,we have the same heritage (we are the west greeks and descend by the same ancestors),we have liberated you form Turkish,
and now we give to you wellness and the our same democratics rights;
we are one same people".
This change something?
Doesn't change anything. Unless the whole of Italy converts to the Orthodox Church (which the Pope wouldn't allow), you're going to have problems.
 
Which they did not under the Fascists and, in OTL, didn't do under a democratic government within their own country? In OTL, under both the Fascists and in the post-war DC government and beyond, there was pretty much only one language recognized - Italian. I don't see why any Italian government in TTL would not want to do the same - hence you'd get loud calls for enosis.
Well,this is not exact.
After the war the new democratic Italy gave official double language (bilinguismo) for Alto Adige/South Tyrol: Italian and German.
So why not the same for dodecanese?
This is not a problem.


Doesn't change anything. Unless the whole of Italy converts to the Orthodox Church (which the Pope wouldn't allow), you're going to have problems.
But in Repubblica Italiana we have full freedom of religion!
None religion is discrimined;this is uncostitutional.
And in Sicily,Calabria and Puglia we have many Orthodoxs (1.187.130 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristianesimo_ortodosso_in_Italia )Many regions of Italy were part of Byzantine Empire,many greeks came to Italy when Bysantium fall and never converted.
Syracuse was for brief years the capital of Empire.
So also this is not a problem.
 
If Greece goes Communist most likely you would just have The Dodecanese and other Greek islands such as Crete form their own Government. Which would be rather interesting once the whole 'Cyprus' cluster fuck starts to rear it's head.
 
Well,this is not exact.
After the war the new democratic Italy gave official double language (bilinguismo) for Alto Adige/South Tyrol: Italian and German.
So why not the same for dodecanese?
This is not a problem.
"After the war" being the key qualifiers here. The Fascists basically suppressed any language that was not Italian - which was odd for a Greek-majority place (with pretty significant Turkish and Sephardi minorities, I might add) like the Dodecanese. After the war, though, the Dodecanese is going to ask for enosis. If the Dodecanese does not get it, then the Dodecanese turns into a cluster-fuck. The Dodecanese is not Alto Adige/Südtirol or the Aosta Valley.

But in Repubblica Italiana we have full freedom of religion!
None religion is discrimined;this is uncostitutional.
But there would be pressure in the Dodecanese to conform to the dominant religion in Italy, which is the Roman Catholic Church, even without official discrimination, as part of an unofficial process of "Italianization" whose effects would still be felt - which is hard in a majority Greek Orthodox area. This would largely be the case from the 1940s to at least the end of Tangentopoli.
 
If Greece goes Communist most likely you would just have The Dodecanese and other Greek islands such as Crete form their own Government. Which would be rather interesting once the whole 'Cyprus' cluster fuck starts to rear it's head.
But of course, since there would really be no "Greece" for people like EOKA to advocate "enosis" with unless if one wished to join a Communist Greece. In this case, Britain would probably ensure that it holds onto Cyprus as long as possible (whilst trying to reverse many of the policies that led to the OTL mess that wrecked Cyprus during the 1950s and 1960s).
 
maybe you need some more pressure in order to keep dodecanese in Italy.
Let's say both a red greece and a soviet-aligned yugoslavia (Tito ortodox to the CCCP).
Also UK must be distracted and not willing to spare occupation troops in the med: earlier falkland crysis?

I do not think religion is really an issue in this scenario, as the alternative is "those godless reds"

language and cultural independence is a more subtle point, and a pro-greek independentist party (or even a terrorist movement) is to be included here.

All in all, I do not thonk that a "definitive" status of the dodecanese as an Italian territory is reasonable, but a "provisional" status in the form of mandate, which for one reason or another is prolonged even after its term is expired, is thinkable.

And, after all, that's a very italian solution :)
 
I like your thinking, mailinutile2. Just one thing to keep in mind:

I do not think religion is really an issue in this scenario, as the alternative is "those godless reds"
In the eyes of the Greeks, language, religion, and culture are extremely intertwined to the point where you can't have one without the other. That is one thing that is somewhat at a level not seen in Europe in general. The closest parallel here would be in Québec before the Quiet Revolution.
 
"After the war" being the key qualifiers here. The Fascists basically suppressed any language that was not Italian - which was odd for a Greek-majority place (with pretty significant Turkish and Sephardi minorities, I might add) like the Dodecanese. After the war, though, the Dodecanese is going to ask for enosis. If the Dodecanese does not get it, then the Dodecanese turns into a cluster-fuck. The Dodecanese is not Alto Adige/Südtirol or the Aosta Valley.
Fascists were bastards idiots that suppressed the freedom of Italian people and led the country to the ruin.
The new democratics principles would protected the Dodecanese peoples.
If Haway is part of United States why Dodecanese not can be,not part,but federated to Italy ("Regione a statuto speciale",with his Parliament) ?
We have the same ancestors,the same history,the same blood.
"Enosis" with motherland? and we are not Hellenics too??
Syracuse and Naples are greek as Athens.



But there would be pressure in the Dodecanese to conform to the dominant religion in Italy, which is the Roman Catholic Church, even without official discrimination, as part of an unofficial process of "Italianization" whose effects would still be felt - which is hard in a majority Greek Orthodox area. This would largely be the case from the 1940s to at least the end of Tangentopoli.
Post 1946,Absolutly not,this is not true,this is ASB.
And who had had make those "pressure"?
Catholic priests?
Well would suffice call the Carabinieri.
In Republic of Italy this is a crime.
P.S. italianization? why?
The Republic recognizes and protect the differences (is in the constitution);differences are wealth.
 
But of course, since there would really be no "Greece" for people like EOKA to advocate "enosis" with unless if one wished to join a Communist Greece. In this case, Britain would probably ensure that it holds onto Cyprus as long as possible (whilst trying to reverse many of the policies that led to the OTL mess that wrecked Cyprus during the 1950s and 1960s).
I would still imagine that people on Cyprus would still be interested in joining some sort of Greek government, even if it just a group of Islands. Besides that I find the concept very interesting :D

Fascists were bastards idiots that suppressed the freedom of Italian people and led the country to the ruin.
The new democratics principles would protected the Dodecanese peoples.
If Haway is part of United States why Dodecanese not can be,not part,but federated to Italy ("Regione a statuto speciale",with his Parliament) ?
We have the same ancestors,the same history,the same blood.
"Enosis" with motherland? and we are not Hellenics too??
Syracuse and Naples are greek as Athens.
Now sure, Greece and Italy share a lot more in common than say Greece and Japan, however there are still differences, be it in language, religion, and even culture. In the end I doubt the people of the Dodecanese are going to be thinking about their common heritage when they start to question whether or not they should rule themselves/join with a independent Greek government.
 
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I would still imagine that people on Cyprus would still be interested in joining some sort of Greek government, even if it just a group of Islands. Besides that I find the concept very interesting :D
In this case, maybe only a minority, since it would be in Britain's interest to retain the island (since they now have a stake in the situation). Though an independent Crete would be an interesting TL that I'd like to read.
 
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