Christopher Columbus asked Genoa and Venice for support for his western route to Asia, before going to Castile. What if one of them agreed to finance the project? Can you imagine a Genoese or Venetian colonization of the Americas?
Italian colonization of the Americas
- Thread starter FernandoPerla
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Lusitania
Donor
The reason that both Genoa and Venice said no was because both countries trading power was derived from India/China trade coming through the Middle East. So it was not in their interest to finance and enterprise that 1) weakened them
2) opened trade route that they could not control or dominate
Secondly neither Italian country had developed the type of ocean going ships that were required for such an enterprise. Even if one of the countries had decided to do so would of required they obtain the knowledge and build their own ships.
Lastly sailing from Italian peninsula puts them at disadvantage since they need to pass through competitors waters (Castile and Portugal) to get to the Atlantic.
2) opened trade route that they could not control or dominate
Secondly neither Italian country had developed the type of ocean going ships that were required for such an enterprise. Even if one of the countries had decided to do so would of required they obtain the knowledge and build their own ships.
Lastly sailing from Italian peninsula puts them at disadvantage since they need to pass through competitors waters (Castile and Portugal) to get to the Atlantic.
Lusitania
Donor
Ok little background. After Portuguese reconquista and the establishment of peace with Castile the Portuguese turned their attention to Africa. Starting in 1415 with the conquest Ceuta the Portuguese went on the attack and also started funding the seafaring learning and infrastructure development. This was rewarded with Portuguese being able to reach Gold Coast around the 1470s. Trade with Gold Coast / Ivory Coast mAde the Portuguese one of the richest countries in world.
This started the idea of reaching India by ship to which Columbus of course was an advocate. There are even some suggestions that he spent some time in Portugal and even Madeira perfecting his idea.
He then pitched his idea to the Portuguese but unbeknown to him in 1490 a Portuguese expedition had reached the India ocean. So Columbus idea was not taken seriously because the Portuguese already had ability to reach India and had started planning Vasco da Gama expedition.
Dejected by the refusal of the strongest and most advanced naval power at the time he returned to Italian peninsula seeking financing and support there. It was only after that that he travelled to newly united Spain.
This started the idea of reaching India by ship to which Columbus of course was an advocate. There are even some suggestions that he spent some time in Portugal and even Madeira perfecting his idea.
He then pitched his idea to the Portuguese but unbeknown to him in 1490 a Portuguese expedition had reached the India ocean. So Columbus idea was not taken seriously because the Portuguese already had ability to reach India and had started planning Vasco da Gama expedition.
Dejected by the refusal of the strongest and most advanced naval power at the time he returned to Italian peninsula seeking financing and support there. It was only after that that he travelled to newly united Spain.
This is a factor I don't think gets talked about enough. IIRC, it's one of the reasons that the main European colonial powers (at least those before the late 19th century) were those that didn't have to worry about other countries' territorial waters.
*Vivaldi brothers return alive in 1292 with much earlier but more gradual European intervention into Western Africa
*By 1350 the maps of Europe include the Canaries, Madiera, and Cape Verde - with the discovery of the Azores and re-discovery of Volubilis interest in exploration and exploration renews
*Granada permits Italian ships to dock as an alternative to letting its Spanish rival gain trade
*By 1390 gold yields in the Gulf of Guinea and cash crop production in the island colonies encourages exploration further south and west
*1401 sees the Volta De Mar push a few ships out to OTL Brazil, one of which is able to return
*By 1350 the maps of Europe include the Canaries, Madiera, and Cape Verde - with the discovery of the Azores and re-discovery of Volubilis interest in exploration and exploration renews
*Granada permits Italian ships to dock as an alternative to letting its Spanish rival gain trade
*By 1390 gold yields in the Gulf of Guinea and cash crop production in the island colonies encourages exploration further south and west
*1401 sees the Volta De Mar push a few ships out to OTL Brazil, one of which is able to return
twovultures
Donor
Would an Italian state be willing to intervene against the Christian states of Castille and Aragon during the *reconquista to protect Granada?
And perhaps more importantly, could an Italian state actually turn the tide of the war? I'd imagine that their support would consist mostly of shipping over Swiss mercenaries to fight alongside the Muslims, but I don't know if that would realistically be a tipping point in the war.
Lusitania
Donor
Considering that crusade was proclaimed by pope to help the reconquista I doubt it. By the time 1490s Granada was for all purposes a vassal of Castile. while that might slow down the Castilian it does nothing to stop the Portuguese from reaching India and bypassing both Genoa / Venice and Muslims. The most profound implication would be no funding of Columbus and while Portuguese will discover Brazil soon after 1500 the discovery and exploration of the Americas be much different
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Then why did they let him shop the idea to others, did they just assume he'd fail so not consider him a real threat?
Lusitania
Donor
He had traveled to Portugal and studied cartography and there he approached the Portuguese. They were the most advanced in maritime exploration at the time. When he was turned down (see previous posts for reasons) he returned to Italian peninsula. They knew he had been turned down by Portugal and presume that by turning him down he would desists. He then left and went elsewhere.
Now the Italians knew the Portuguese wanted to round Africa but no one knew if it was possible. They just did not know the Portuguese had finally done it.
Tie the economies of the regional powers together differently and the impetus for war may disappear altogether. If Italian merchanys dominate the stalls at Granada and Madrid neither will be apt to anger those who supply their families or the export market for their own goods...
gurgu
Banned
actually, genoa had control of gibraltar so no problem about entering the atlantic.
Also genoa had a few colonies the most important was panama( before being detroyed from pirates and there where few explorers in 1200/1300 from genoa under genoese expedition that tried to circumnavigate africa( vivaldi brothers) so there is still a chance were the genoese nobles agree about funding columbus
When did Genoa control Gibraltar?
I think that if a strong Italian or just North Italian state develops by the time of the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople they might have incentive in trying to circumnavigate Africa/cross the Atlantic to try and reach India without having to deal with the Turks, but they will always be at a disadvantage compared to Atlantic powers and would probably have better success in trying to regain naval supremacy in the Eastern Med, maybe even conquer outposts in N. Africa to limit the Barbary pirates issue.
Later on, Tuscany tried to go for a colony in Guyana, but I doubt it would have succeeded: the area was climatically very bad and close to potentially hostile powers (the Dutch). But that's an example of the kind of colonies Italian powers could realistically get.
Unless... Spain opens up colonisation of some of its colonies to Italian subjects? Maybe even deporting say rebellious Neapolitans to Florida or somewhere else after Masaniello's rebellion? It would be a different modus operandi for the Spanish colonial empire, but could have quite interesting demographic and cultural consequences in the long term.
gurgu
Banned
the genoese help in the reconquista was crucial( they conquered on their own minorca, almeira, tortosa).After the final fall of granada the genoese took control of some ports as usual, one of these was gibraltar where the genoese population growed and became even the main population in 700', even today if you go there you will find lots of genoese tipical surnames like Parodi,Canepa etc.