Italian Argentina

OTL, most of the Italians immigrants who came to Argentina where from Northern Italy, especially in the XIX Century.

What do you think would be the consequences if the North Italians all spoke the very same language and not different ones as in OTL? Do you think that Argentina could become Italian speaking?
 

maverick

Banned
According to that infallible bastion of intellectual integrity that is Wikipedia, at most Italians composed a 48% of immigrants in Argentina and a 12% of the total population in 1895, with over one million Italians living in Argentina, presumably in Buenos Aires and its surroundings.

So no, the country wouldn't become Italian speaking, but Buenos Aires could, although this would need a pretty big POD to have all Italians speaking the same language.

Either something in the middle ages or have a Nationalist Government in the 19th century unify Italy, eliminate all other dialects and impose a single national tongue.

Of course, those who'd want to escape such linguistic tyranny might end up migrating to Argentina...:p
 
I could've sworn the majority of Argentinians are of Italian descent. Even the local Spanish dialect holds a heavy Italian influence. The problem is that a lot of the Italian immigrants spoke different, often unintelligible dialects and languages so it's not like Argentina will become Italian-speaking.
 
When I was in Germany I met a couple of Argentines. They told me that Argentines don't use the Spanish naming convention of giving a child the mother and the father's surname, because of the Italian influence. Also, they could basically underdstand Italian because of the strong influence of that language on Argentine Spanish.
 
When I was in Germany I met a couple of Argentines. They told me that Argentines don't use the Spanish naming convention of giving a child the mother and the father's surname, because of the Italian influence. Also, they could basically underdstand Italian because of the strong influence of that language on Argentine Spanish.

Many Spanish people from Spain can "basically understand" Italian, even if they do not speak another Romance language, which is often the case as well. The influence on the accent and exposure to vocabulary and pronunciation helps the Argentinians, true, but it is not crucial.

About naming conventions, it does sound like they were exaggerating a bit. What tends to happen in my experience is that the second surname does not get used in public much. Which is the case in all Spanish speaking countries anyway.

Then again, I might be wrong. And we have people from thereabouts who can help. (Hi, Maverick!)
 
It was Octavio Paz, a Mexican writer who said: "Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and believe themselves to be French"

Going back to my question, this idea came from a book I am reading called "Nuestros Abuelos Italianos(Our Italian Grandparents)", by Alberto Sarramone. I recommend it, it's really good. In the book, the author explains that there where two reasons why Argentineans didn't end up speaking Italian. One is the different languages and the other is the Argentinean education program.

As Maverick said, in 1895, Italians wheren't more than 12% percent of the total population, but their descendants where another 8% at least, because most of the Italian immigration to Argentina was based on young marriages. And if we take in consideration that in the Pampas(that is Buenos Aires, Santa Fe, La Pampa, part of Cordoba), Chaco and Formosa, and Northern Patagonia(Rio Negro, Chubut and Neuquen), most of the habitants where Italians(especially in the places like Chaco and Patagonia), then it could be a posibility to have half of the country become Italian speaking.

I think that if we butterfly away Sarmiento's education plans(just say he didn't get the idea), together with the North Italians having a common language(they were united by lets say Milan during part of the middle ages), then those areas could become Italian speaking or at least be mainly Italian speaking. Then, by influence, it will spread to Southern Patagonia.

What do you think the effects in Argentina will be? Could the whole country become Italian Speaking, or the situation will revert and it will become all Spanish speaking again?
If it becomes Italian Speaking, what do you think will be the effects in its relationship with the Spanish speaking Latin America?
 
Many Spanish people from Spain can "basically understand" Italian, even if they do not speak another Romance language, which is often the case as well. The influence on the accent and exposure to vocabulary and pronunciation helps the Argentinians, true, but it is not crucial.

I'm afraid I disagree here. I find Portuguese, when written, closer to Spanish than Italian, but I understand Italian far more easily than Portuguese when spoken. Pronunciation, accent and vocabulary are indeed crucial, I think. According to my personal experience, non-Argentinian Spanish speaker tend to find harder than averege Argentinians understanding Italian (without having learned it, of course)

About naming conventions, it does sound like they were exaggerating a bit. What tends to happen in my experience is that the second surname does not get used in public much. Which is the case in all Spanish speaking countries anyway.

Then again, I might be wrong. And we have people from thereabouts who can help. (Hi, Maverick!)

It's not just that it isn't used in public, it's isn't used in public certificates (Documents, IDs, birth certificates, and so on). This is what differenciates Argentina from Spain and most Latin America

In Argentina, double surnames are only used if your first surname is a very common one (usually a Spanish one, like Lopez or Perez). But not when your father's surname is foreign (not Spanish) or is a rare Spanish one. (Of course, this is the general rule, there are exceptions).

However, I don't know if this has anything to do with Italian influence
 
I could've sworn the majority of Argentinians are of Italian descent. Even the local Spanish dialect holds a heavy Italian influence. The problem is that a lot of the Italian immigrants spoke different, often unintelligible dialects and languages so it's not like Argentina will become Italian-speaking.

The Italian-born, as a group, where never the majority of the country's population (they were the majority in Buenos Aires and in many villages in the countriside). Foreingers were never more than 30 % of the population of Argentina (although they were more than 70% in cities like Buenos Aires or Rosario).

But one must remember that the kids of immigrants born in the country were Argentinians, even if both their parents were Italians and spoke Italian at home.

So, indeed, a lot of Argentinians are of Italian descent (a bit less than 50%, I believe). Of course, first-generation Italian tended to marry within their group, but second-generation ones didn't. So many of these Argentinians of "Italian ancestry" also have other ancestors (Spanish, Polish, Amerindian, Jewish, Basque, French, german, Welsh, African, etc.).
 
The Italian-born, as a group, where never the majority of the country's population (they were the majority in Buenos Aires and in many villages in the countriside). Foreingers were never more than 30 % of the population of Argentina (although they were more than 70% in cities like Buenos Aires or Rosario).

But one must remember that the kids of immigrants born in the country were Argentinians, even if both their parents were Italians and spoke Italian at home.

So, indeed, a lot of Argentinians are of Italian descent (a bit less than 50%, I believe). Of course, first-generation Italian tended to marry within their group, but second-generation ones didn't. So many of these Argentinians of "Italian ancestry" also have other ancestors (Spanish, Polish, Amerindian, Jewish, Basque, French, german, Welsh, African, etc.).

This happened because the sons of Italians already spoke Spanish as the sons of others immigrants did, and their children did so even more, which gave place to the marriages outside the groups.

It happened in my family. My great-great-grandparents were both Italians who married because they were both Italians. Later, my great-grandmother(their daughter) married a Croat.
 
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