And here's my other scenario: I've been thinking about other potential colonists in the Americas, with a divergence point around the usual time of the Age of Discovery (15th century). Anyway, what if Columbus found the backing for his expedition in his (presumed) home town of Genoa? Could travel to the New World have fallen into the hands of the Republic of Genoa? I know at the time the Republic was barely recovering from losses incurred by conflicts with the Ottomans, and presumably could have viewed the New World (Ameriga? Vesspucciland?) as a potential money-making venture. Did Genoa have enough of a martial spirit to have inspired their own versions of the Conquistadores? How long would it take before the implications of the Columbus voyage became apparent to the courts of Europe? What's the likelihood of rival colonists in the Amerigas, and who would they be?
Italian America
- Thread starter reddie
- Start date
Since nobody has responded to my post, here's a picture of European land claims, circa 1620. I'll do a timeline later.
Anyway, light blue=New Spain, Yellow=Republic of Genoa, Light Green=Duchy of Milan/France, Orange=Netherlands, Pink=Belgium/Burgundy, Red=Republic of Florence, and the Dark Blue=Frontier, mainly inhabited by escaped slaves (Russian, Tatar, Caucasian, Moorish, and African).
Any comments? How might this thing shape up?
Anyway, light blue=New Spain, Yellow=Republic of Genoa, Light Green=Duchy of Milan/France, Orange=Netherlands, Pink=Belgium/Burgundy, Red=Republic of Florence, and the Dark Blue=Frontier, mainly inhabited by escaped slaves (Russian, Tatar, Caucasian, Moorish, and African).
Any comments? How might this thing shape up?
The Brit claims are a part I'm having trouble deciding about. Obviously the Brits were late to the party, but they're definitely going to get in on the act...I'm certain wars between England and at least one of the colonial powers are inevitable. A war between the British and Belgium and/or the Netherlands seems most likely.
BTW, the light blue part of Maine and the surrounding area was originally supposed to be Swedish claims, but I had already submitted the pic before I noticed I had made it the same color as "New Spain." I went ahead and considered it a Spanish claim. Not sure what the Spaniards are doing that far north, though...
BTW, the light blue part of Maine and the surrounding area was originally supposed to be Swedish claims, but I had already submitted the pic before I noticed I had made it the same color as "New Spain." I went ahead and considered it a Spanish claim. Not sure what the Spaniards are doing that far north, though...
The Sandman
Banned
I would say that any significant Italian colonization of the Americas could only have occurred if Spain, Portugal, and France ignored the Americas completely. The instant that one of those countries decides that the Italian colonies would look better if they were flying the Spanish/Portugese/French flag, the Italians lose their claims, as they are simply too vulnerable to naval interdiction in the Mediterranean and Straits of Gibraltar.
The Sandman
Banned
The Dutch were trying to get past the English, and they had the advantage that A. The English Channel and North Sea are both quite a bit larger than the Straits of Gibraltar and Gulf of Cadiz, and B. The English were generally friendly to the Dutch. Even then, when the English wanted the Dutch colonies (cough*New Amsterdam*cough) they grabbed them pretty easily.
With the Italians, they had enough trouble trying to keep Spain and France from taking over Italy, much less holding on in North America.
With the Italians, they had enough trouble trying to keep Spain and France from taking over Italy, much less holding on in North America.
The Sandman
Banned
Who wanted them? The bits of the Dutch empire that were both accessible and worth something, like New Amsterdam and Recife, fell pretty quickly once one of the other powers decided to take them.
The English wanted the antilles during the ARW. It is a stragetic chain of Islands for sumgling goods into enemies and provided a good launching point for suppling anywhere in the Caribbean, but of corse the British had the Bahamas already could do the same thing. It would serve as nothing accept redunantcy, but in the hands of an enemy they were dangerous.thesandman said:
The Sandman
Banned
I would argue that the reason why the British didn't grab the Netherlands Antilles in the ARW had very little to do with the Dutch and rather more to do with the fact that the British were, at the same time, fighting us, the French, the Spanish, and assorted minor nations around the globe. They didn't have the resources to spare to go after a redundant and insignificant group of islands.
The Sandman
Banned
From what it sounds like, they succeeded in grabbing most of the Dutch colonies at that time, and apparently sank the bulk of the Dutch fleet during the fighting. The Dutch were fairly comprehensively beaten.
I think that the biggest problem with any attempt by one of the Italian city-states or principalities to take colonies in the New World is going to be the simple geographical fact that they are in the Mediterranean and Spain and/or Portugal can seal off access to the Straits of Gibraltar. Any Italian city state would have to ALWAYS be on good terms with whoever controlled the straits, or all direct contact with its colonies is lost.
It could happen - not likely, I think, but at least somewhat possible.
If Genoa or Venice or Florence or other Italian states get pieces of territory in the New World, though, I think that they might have follow a course broadly similar to the Dutch of OTL - plantation colonies in the tropics, trading outposts with some limited settlement in the colder regions, prosperous but somewhat smaller than the swathes of land taken or claimed by the Spanish, French, English, or Portuguese. They would try to play the larger powers off against each other, but some of them would end up getting conquered as some of the Dutch colonies did in OTL.
It could happen - not likely, I think, but at least somewhat possible.
If Genoa or Venice or Florence or other Italian states get pieces of territory in the New World, though, I think that they might have follow a course broadly similar to the Dutch of OTL - plantation colonies in the tropics, trading outposts with some limited settlement in the colder regions, prosperous but somewhat smaller than the swathes of land taken or claimed by the Spanish, French, English, or Portuguese. They would try to play the larger powers off against each other, but some of them would end up getting conquered as some of the Dutch colonies did in OTL.
reddie said:
It seems that there were spanish (basque and cantabrian) fishermen operating around there since early XV century.
Max Sinister
Banned
I was working on a TL where Italians own big colonies in America, too, but as you pointed out, it's difficult for them, being locked in the Med... in my TL, Italy is united, but even then... maybe if they win a war against Spain and keep Gibraltar...
Paul Spring said:
I'm basing the level of cooperation between the Italians and Iberians on Pope Alexander's Bull of Inter Caetera (sp?) which in OTL divided up the New World between Spain and Portugal. In this timeline there was a third player in the game, Genoa, whom was also addressed in the Bull.
Yeah, definitely some of the colonies will fall to the more westerly powers.
Well, what if Gibralter was controlled by an Italian state? They would have a better time getting to the Americas then.