It is Austria's destiny to rule Germany

Susano

Banned
Except no. Theres no reason to give that land to the United Netherlands, who already are amply supplied with the Southern Netherlands. Also, Westphalia would be a joke as a compensation for Saxony. If at all the Wettins would have to get the Rhineland, but better yet both part. Though, actually, if the Wettins gain the Rhineland, then Westphalia can stay Prussian. This encompasses nearly all old Prussian territories in the west anyways (Mark, Minden, Ravenstein, Lingen, Tecklenburg). Give it the Emsland and East Frisia still for a nice sea access and voila... of course this probably means Hannover keeps Lauenburg, which in turn means Denmark keeps (formerly) Swedish Pommerania... Somebody should tell Valdemar to have a look, its turning into one of those Congress threads again :D
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Except no. Theres no reason to give that land to the United Netherlands, who already are amply supplied with the Southern Netherlands. Also, Westphalia would be a joke as a compensation for Saxony. If at all the Wettins would have to get the Rhineland, but better yet both part. Though, actually, if the Wettins gain the Rhineland, then Westphalia can stay Prussian. This encompasses nearly all old Prussian territories in the west anyways (Mark, Minden, Ravenstein, Lingen, Tecklenburg). Give it the Emsland and East Frisia still for a nice sea access and voila... of course this probably means Hannover keeps Lauenburg, which in turn means Denmark keeps (formerly) Swedish Pommerania... Somebody should tell Valdemar to have a look, its turning into one of those Congress threads again :D

Yes but the idea of Congress Poland resplit between Prussia and Austria instead of given to Russia has it own charm. Maybe if we mix it with Prussia gain the same territories from Saxony as it gained in OTL (or just gain OTL Westphalen and Transrhine North Rhine). Of course it beg the question whom get the Rhineland and Belgium, I think if we put Russia in a weaker position Austria need to be stronger, but here's the problem that they really don't want it*. But giving it to Netherlands are too much, but we still need a strong state in the area, to serve to stop France. Maybe the British could support the recreation of a closer German Confederation against Austria keeping the the Austrian Netherland and gaining the Rhineland (Bavaria would of course gain Pfalz), and Italian Venedig reestablish as independent state.

Political such a world would look quite different, we would see a Austrian-British-minor German states alliance against a Russian-France-Bavarian(-Prussian?) one. In many way it would recreate the dynamic of the early 18th century, which was likely was why Austria was so hostile to it. But it has the potential to result in German unification lead by Austria instead of Prussia, and Prussia with it vast Polish territories may chooce to stay out of the unification (if Prussia and Bavaria are defeated in a internal German war, I could see Westphalen, Pfalz and Bavaria annexed by Austria, giving them control over the majority of German territories). Of course with such a early POD the Schleswig Wars likely stay a internal Danish matter, without Prussia being able to play the German nationalism card and any crisis in Danish royal succesion butterflied away. So a this alternative Kleindeutschland will likely lack Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, most of Brandenburg and Sachsen-Anhalt and maybe Hamburg, but include Belgium, Limburg, Luxemburg, Czechia, Austria and Slovenia (with the rest of the Habsburg possesion being in personal union with Germany)

Not a bad trade.

*For good reason the Austrian Netherland was never anything but trouble for Austria.
 

Susano

Banned
Yes but the idea of Congress Poland resplit between Prussia and Austria instead of given to Russia has it own charm.
All of Congress Poland split between the two? As said, that would require a Russian collapse. Thats just unlikely. And Prussia simply getting "some more of Poland" is insufficient. Saxony and enlargened Westphalia should do the trick, though. If we want an independant Saxony, then things get tricky...

Maybe the British could support the recreation of a closer German Confederation against Austria keeping the the Austrian Netherland and gaining the Rhineland (Bavaria would of course gain Pfalz), and Italian Venedig reestablish as independent state.
Yeah, as you said, Austria does not want that. That just wont come through.

Of course with such a early POD the Schleswig Wars likely stay a internal Danish matter, without Prussia being able to play the German nationalism card and any crisis in Danish royal succesion butterflied away.
The latter yes. But Denmark might still try something silly, and lets remember Prussia and Austria IOTL were not even the first to appear at the scene, that were Hannover and Saxony. So even if it isnt Prussia intervening, some German States will. Or maybe the GC even declares the Bundeskrieg...
 
Or possibly the KoS gets Westphalia, while the Rhineland (at lest as far as the Moselle) goes to the King of the Netherlands (istr a map giving this as one ot the proposed boundaries for the KotN). This has some interesting butterflies, since if the Catholic Rhinelanders join in the Belgian revolt, we probably get a "Belgium" extending all the way to the Rhine, and having three communities, Walloons, Flemings and Germans, rather than two.





"Austrasia" or "Lower Lotharingia" strike me as possibilities. Alternatively, it might just be the Kingdom of "Aachen" or "Cologne" depending where its capital city was. Or perhaps its king might want to call it "Lower Saxony" for sentimental reasons.

The kingdom of the Netherlands might end up with some territories ((parts of) Cleves, the Rhineland), but it already got a lot with the Southern Netherlands, so this isn't going to be much and the most likely outcome would be similar to the OTL 1815 Dutch Borders.

Or know that I think of it, the title of Saxony actually had migrated to the east, Westphalia was a part of the (historic) stem duchy of Saxony; so they just as well could have called their new kingdom the kingdom of Saxony. Or to put it differently, the kingdom of Saxony never ceases to exist, but the kingdom of Saxony is given a different territory; Prussia gets the entire before the congress of Vienna territory of the kingdom of Saxony (most of 13 (green and yellow) on the map) and the king of Saxony is compensated with (all of or at least most of) the Rhineland (12) and Westphalia (16) (the OTL post congress of Vienna Prussian provinces). Perhaps the king of Saxony is only punished with this territory swap and so much with an actual loss of territory, since this kingdom will (just as the kingdom of the United* Netherlands (*= never a part of the official name of the kingdom)) have to act as a buffer state against French aggression. Although some small part of the territory could be given to neighbouring states.

In the case of the Wittelsbach option the king of Bavaria probably would have to (be forced to) trade Bavaria (which under such a scenario would become Austrian), with the exception of the Bavarian Palatinate** (this part of the OTL kingdom of Bavaria is separate from the rest of Bavaria and it borders the Rhineland), for the (entire) Rhineland and Westphalia.
(**= not the Upper Palatinate)
(Found on Wikipedia)

Ac.prussiamap3.gif
 
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All of Congress Poland split between the two? As said, that would require a Russian collapse. Thats just unlikely.

Indeed, but they can never lose those territories so that Napoleon can create his grand duchy of Warsaw in the first place.
 
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