Israel Survives Assyria- No Ten Lost Tribes?

Similar to Judah's later fall, King Hoshea refused to give tribute to his Assyrian overlords (expecting Egyptian aid) and thus resulted in the Israelites being deported and scattered, becoming the "Ten Lost Tribes" (Though 9.5 might be more accurate, as the Tribe of Levi surely had priests in Judah?).
Now, what if King Hoshea had not withheld tribute, and the Kingdom of Israel continued to exist? I'll assume it lasts through at least the Assyrian era, simply because it wouldn't be too interesting if Israel falls to Assyria a few years later instead... (Another interesting WI would be Hoshea getting Egyptian aid and fighting off the Assyrians)

How would the traditionally stronger Northern Kingdom react to Babylon? What if Judah was deported in the Babylonian Exile, but Israel remained? What would be thelogical implications?
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
Archaeological evidence indicates that the modern Jewish religion originated in Judah, not the "united kingdom of David and Solomon" which doesn't appear to have ever existed in the first place. If Israel had not fallen, allowing its previously backwater neighbor of Judah to come to prominence, Judaism as we know it (probably as anything at all *like* we know it) would not have come into existence, and the Judeo-Christian religions would never exist.
 
Ian the Admin said:
Archaeological evidence indicates that the modern Jewish religion originated in Judah, not the "united kingdom of David and Solomon" which doesn't appear to have ever existed in the first place. If Israel had not fallen, allowing its previously backwater neighbor of Judah to come to prominence, Judaism as we know it (probably as anything at all *like* we know it) would not have come into existence, and the Judeo-Christian religions would never exist.

In the 18th Century they were also calling Troy a "myth." Just because "archaeological evidence" has yet to be discovered doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

http://www.probe.org/content/view/494/157/

To pull from another source..
As you may know, there is a hot debate going on among archaeologists concerning the tenth century B.C., the purported time of the United Kingdom under David and his son, Solomon. Are they historical figures, or did some author(s) invent these mythical persons centuries later? And what can be said about Jerusalem? There is very little archaeological evidence to substantiate that it existed in the tenth century B.C. as described in the Bible. This has led a small group of archaeologists to conclude David and Solomon never existed, and Jerusalem was not the thriving royal capital of the Israelites. I will develop this in more detail later, but I first want to say again that an absence of evidence does not necessarily and automatically bring us to conclude nothing was going on in the tenth century B.C. at Jerusalem. This is an argument from silence. There are alternative explanations. First of all, the most likely place where Jerusalem's public buildings and important monuments would be located is on the Temple Mount, which for obvious reasons (Arab occupation), cannot be excavated. Thus, the most important area for investigation to uncover possible confirmation for David and Solomon is off limits to us.
 
The Moabite Stone describes two distinct political entites, "Israel" and "The House of David."

Remember, the Bible describes Pharaoh Necho looting Jerusalem and taking all the gold to be used in Egyptian temples and the Babylonians devastated the city later, so it's likely that a lot of the impressive stuff from Solomon's time got stolen/destroyed.

We need to bring in Leo_Caesius!
 
Wolve said:
In the 18th Century they were also calling Troy a "myth." Just because "archaeological evidence" has yet to be discovered doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

http://www.probe.org/content/view/494/157/

To pull from another source..

It is not an 'argument from silence'. There are remains excavated from this era and there are no references to David or Solomon or an 'empire'. One reference claimed to mention these is almost certainly a forgery considering the circumstances surrounding its discovery.

The Troan War is almost certainly a myth in that there is no evidence it ever occured. While a city called Troy probably existed there is no evidence it was called that at the time the so-called war took place.
 
MarkA said:
The Troan War is almost certainly a myth in that there is no evidence it ever occured. While a city called Troy probably existed there is no evidence it was called that at the time the so-called war took place.
There's evidence of Troy getting razed around one point in time that the war might have taken place. What more evidence do you want for a war 3000 years ago?
 
True, Judaism as it exists took centuries to evolve from Judah, not to mention the need to adapt over time. Obviously when most Jews lived far from Jerusalem requirements involving closer contact with the Temple had to be waived, not to mention the rules regarding the Temple(destroyed) and the priesthood(rabbihood?)(also gone).

The united kingdom almost certainly existed as is mentioned in the histories, a short-lived(two kings) realm that emerged when the Philistines lost their technological advantage and a power vacuum emerged, said vacuum filled by a warrior king, who we can call David if desired, who also allied with Phoenicia and whose son sensibly associated with Egypt.

Sensible since Assyria WAS rising in strength up north.

Bear in mind that from what I remember, more than half the territory of this allegedly united kingdom was actually putative allies and unwilling occupied lands whose loyalty lasted roughly eleven seconds after it could no longer be forced.
 
I concur with Grimm.

Key point: "Short-lived."

How much evidence would Skanderbeg's Albania leave after 3000 years? People might look back and read fragmentary accounts of Ottoman armies being spanked and think that this was impossible, that the documents must've been false.
 
DominusNovus said:
There's evidence of Troy getting razed around one point in time that the war might have taken place. What more evidence do you want for a war 3000 years ago?

Not a city as described by Homer. A small, rather miserable settlement at around the time of the 'war' appears to heve been destroyed by earthquake and by the handof man.

Archeological evidence of a war 3000 years ago would do. Simply finding something that may or may not fit the evidence and ascribing all the written poetic 'history' to it is not science.
 
MerryPrankster said:
I concur with Grimm.

Key point: "Short-lived."

How much evidence would Skanderbeg's Albania leave after 3000 years? People might look back and read fragmentary accounts of Ottoman armies being spanked and think that this was impossible, that the documents must've been false.

People might look back and think it was possible too.

All sorts of archeological evidence would be left behind I would think. And future historians would have a fair idea of the style of warfare and weaponry used.
 
Grimm Reaper said:
True, Judaism as it exists took centuries to evolve from Judah, not to mention the need to adapt over time. Obviously when most Jews lived far from Jerusalem requirements involving closer contact with the Temple had to be waived, not to mention the rules regarding the Temple(destroyed) and the priesthood(rabbihood?)(also gone).

The united kingdom almost certainly existed as is mentioned in the histories, a short-lived(two kings) realm that emerged when the Philistines lost their technological advantage and a power vacuum emerged, said vacuum filled by a warrior king, who we can call David if desired, who also allied with Phoenicia and whose son sensibly associated with Egypt.

Sensible since Assyria WAS rising in strength up north.

Bear in mind that from what I remember, more than half the territory of this allegedly united kingdom was actually putative allies and unwilling occupied lands whose loyalty lasted roughly eleven seconds after it could no longer be forced.

Mentioned in which histories? There is no such kingdom mentioned in the annals of any northern or Mesopotamian kingdom or in Egypt.
 
MarkA said:
Mentioned in which histories? There is no such kingdom mentioned in the annals of any northern or Mesopotamian kingdom or in Egypt.

This is only somewhat related, but there's something called "The Ipuwer Manuscript" which describes something very similar to the Exodus (a series of natural disasters and the slaves running off with gold) and a Greco-Egyptian writer claimed that "the Exodus" was merely the expulsion of a leper colony.

The Moabite Stone still tells of "Israel" and "The House of David." I read about it in Time magazine. This implies two separate political entities, with "The House of David" referring to Judah (since the only thing separating the two was different ruling dynasties).
 
MarkA said:
Not a city as described by Homer. A small, rather miserable settlement at around the time of the 'war' appears to heve been destroyed by earthquake and by the handof man.

Archeological evidence of a war 3000 years ago would do. Simply finding something that may or may not fit the evidence and ascribing all the written poetic 'history' to it is not science.
I find it more likely than not that there was probably a war at the place called Troy. Its postioning made it a controlling point to the straits. Now the war wouldn't had been the same as Homer discribed, which is why it is entiltled a myth, but it is likely that the capture or distruction was a momentous occassion allowing a freer passage through to the Black Sea. To say Homer was correct in the generallities of the setting, but just gave it a heroic interpertation should not be far off given the pre-Persian Empire enviroment.
 
MarkA said:
Not a city as described by Homer. A small, rather miserable settlement at around the time of the 'war' appears to heve been destroyed by earthquake and by the handof man.

Archeological evidence of a war 3000 years ago would do. Simply finding something that may or may not fit the evidence and ascribing all the written poetic 'history' to it is not science.

IIRC what Schliemann found was not a small miserable settlement, but an actual city. Not as big and bright and shiny as Homer's Troy, but Homer wrote centuries after the event and probably exaggerated.
 

Susano

Banned
What Schliemann found was a complete HOST of cities, level over level over level. Each time Troy was destroyed, a new settlement was built over the older one. What made the archeologcial site so alrge is that fact, and the most glorious levels are not those of the time Homer described.

What can be said about Troy is that there was a settlement, and that it was destroyed in war. However, it was no particualrily powerfuly polity, and it surely wasnt destroyed by a pan-hellenic alliance.

Liekwise, Judah and Israel existed. However, they apprently were not an united polity, and also never particularily powerful themselves. And, of course, they exitsed in a historically better documented region then Troy. I mean, such a settlement as Troy could well become forgotten in a region like western asia minor. However. an empire as the Israeli-Judaic empire would have been, in a region bordered by Mesopotamia and Egypt, both highc uotures since millenia - that would not have just been forgotten.
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
Wolve said:
In the 18th Century they were also calling Troy a "myth." Just because "archaeological evidence" has yet to be discovered doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

I don't mean "the united kingdom of Israel has not yet been discovered", I mean evidence has been uncovered that *disproves* it.

Biblical archaeology is an odd beast. From the start a century ago, it was basically a religious enterprise - anything that resembled something in the Bible was interpreted as proving the biblical account. In the last couple of decades, however, archaeologists operating without blatant religious bias and using the same techniques and dating technologies that were applied to other civilizations have made an effort to figure out the real history of the region of Israel.

It is now quite uncontroversial that everything in the Bible prior to the "unified kingdom" period is "not historical". No Abraham, no Moses, no Pharoah dying in the Red Sea, no tribes wandering the Sinai, period. A big problem with the biblical account comes from trying to correlate it with Egyptian history which is uncommonly well known. For example, wandering the Sinai is something that would have seemed plausible around ~700BC when these stories were actually written down (everything in the Bible about periods before that resembles the world of ~700BC, not the real world at any prior time). During the only plausible periods when an Exodus could have occurred, centuries before that, the Sinai was actually well inside the Egyptian empire. IIRC, the Egyptians actually ruled Canaan itself for a long time. (And there's no evidence of extended human habitation in the Sinai at any plausible period - and in this case, absence of evidence *is* evidence of absence, because archaeologists have learned to find even the tiniest bits of evidence that people were living in a region).

There is still some debate over whether the unified kingdom actually existed, but the balance of evidence seems to be swinging to "no". Israel and Judah both definitely existed - the Egyptians conquered and ravaged a nation known as Israel around 1200BC, IIRC (no information is available other than a victory monument). But Judah was always very distinct from Israel - specifically, it was always a relative backwater with no indications that it ever benefitted from being a part of some great conquering kingdom. There's also no evidence of Israelite conquests - there is evidence of wars in the area which were previously thought to have been Israel's conquests, but modern dating technologies indicated they had no plausible connection.

By far the most plausible explanation given the evidence are that Israel and Judah were never united, and Judah was a relatively backwater nation. Israel was later destroyed by the Assyrians, leaving Judah in a short-lived position of prominence in which it was inundated with Israelite refugees. The priests of Yahweh in Judah took this opportunity to write Deuteronomy, codifying Jewish law - the rules on intermarriage were specifically designed to protect their culture against men of Judah taking refugee wives. Biblical history reflects the world at this point because that was the first time any of the stories/legends in the Bible were put to paper. Much of it was clearly motivated by ethnic nationalism - a primary goal was to explain why it was great that Judah should now have primacy over Israel and its people, and also the right to seize Israelite land (specifically, that they'd once been one kingdom but the Israelites had ruined it).

An extremely detailed, popularly accessible archaeological-detective-story explanation can be found in "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Filkestein and Neil Asher Silberman.
 
I believe that there was a period around 1000 - 900 BC when all of the major powers in what is now called the Middle East were pretty weak - Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, etc. In a power vacuum of that kind, a medium sized kingdom of the sort that is described for David and Solomon could have actually existed for a short time. I suspect the fact that no artifacts mention their name isn't actually that big a deal - the records from that period are so fragmentary that even the names of rulers are few and far between except for the largest civilizations like Egypt (and even ancient Egypt has a few periods where they've never completely figured out who was ruling).

Plus, if you assume that Israel and Judah were always separate kingdoms, that just begs the question of where Israel and Judah came from.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
First of all, the most likely place where Jerusalem's public buildings and important monuments would be located is on the Temple Mount, which for obvious reasons (Arab occupation), cannot be excavated. Thus, the most important area for investigation to uncover possible confirmation for David and Solomon is off limits to us.
Actually, that's completely wrong. First of all, there are excavations on the Temple Mount. They're being conducted by Eilat Mazar of Hebrew University. She has already published two volumes on the periods excavated by her father, the late archaeologist Benjamin Mazar, thanks to the organization for which I work.

The main reason why archaeology in the historic areas of Jerusalem is "off-limits" is because most of those areas are private property. People are living there or worshipping there, and the State of Israel recognizes their right to continue living and worshipping there. This is the problem in any major urban center which has been more or less continuously occupied since antiquity. Beirut is a major exception, as much of the downtown area was ravaged by the civil war, allowing for some archaeologists (including some colleagues of mine at the American University of Beirut) to engage in salvage archaeology before the area was redeveloped.

Furthermore, while excavation of the Temple Mount might tell us something about the various temples that have sprung up there (which would undoubtedly be very interesting), it would not probably not tell us much about the history of the city and the state around it. For that, we need to cast our net wider.

The organization for which I work, The Shelby White - Leon Levy Program for Archaeological Publication, is currently funding the publication of eight sites in Jerusalem, including two excavations on the Temple Mount.

Binyanei Ha'uma (Early Roman, Late Roman, and early Byzantine, w. of the Old City)

Early Roman Temple Mount and

Late Roman Temple Mount

R.A. Stewart Macalister's exacavations in the City of David.

Avigad's excavations of the Jewish Quarter

and, more specifically,

The Cardo and the Nea Church in the Jewish Quarter

and two excavations on Mount Zion.
 
MarkA said:
Mentioned in which histories? There is no such kingdom mentioned in the annals of any northern or Mesopotamian kingdom or in Egypt.

Way too much gets made of that fact. The fact is that both Egypt and Mesopotamia were in what were, in effect, Dark Ages at the time the Kingdom of David and Solomon is supposed to existed (ca. 1,000-ca. 950 BC or thereabouts). Very little of the goings-on INSIDE EGYPT AND ASSYRIA THEMSELVES are known from this period, much less of lands outside those areas, because, unlike the periods before and after, the Kings weren't leaving detailed annals.

The Tel Dan stone mentions the House of David. And before you go off on a rant about it being a "forgery," that is the opinion basically of ONE GUY (I forget his name...he wrote a book about it). The opinion of virtually the entire archaeological community is that the stone is genuine.
 
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