Israel loses the 1973 war

Arabs aren't some evil rapist monsters.

...while the Hutus are?

2, even if things DID degenerate to such a situation, which I find extremely unlikely, the USA not 3 years ago finished beating the shit out of an evil fascist regime that tried to exterminate Jews. What do you think their response will be to even a hint of someone attempting to exterminate a bunch of Jews?

More likely, one of two things happens: The US steps in and mandates that the Jewish forces sit down, shut the Hell up, and let the Arab majority run the damn useless marshland; or, the Soviets make flexing motions and the US doesn't have enough nukes ready to deploy yet, so the US evacs the Jewish civilian population and says "hey, we're, uh, ending immigration quotas for Jews, come here and you're all cool with us, OK?"

You have an extremly rosy view about how ethnic cleansing works,or how much worth of any goodwill of the west was when shit hits the fan. the yews didn't believe it would save their hides,and considering what utter disgrace the western actions were before,during and after the holocaust they were probably right about that.
 
...while the Hutus are?
...no? Rwanda was a rather unusual situation brought on by active encouragement of ethnic and class divides by a colonial power for the better part of a century, followed by an increasingly fraught postcolonial situation and political currents dominated by radical ethnonationalists.
You have an extremly rosy view about how ethnic cleansing works,or how much worth of any goodwill of the west was when shit hits the fan. the yews didn't believe it would save their hides,and considering what utter disgrace the western actions were before,during and after the holocaust they were probably right about that.

Except that that view completely fails to account for the massive sea change that the Holocaust caused for public opinion of Jews in the Western world. (Romani not so much, because they get fucked over no matter what it seems) Post-'45, no Western power could be seen as insufficiently protective of Jews. It's still the easiest way to attack a Western politician--accuse them of antisemitism and voters immediately get leery.
 
If the US doesn't say "if you use the nukes you can kiss our support good-bye" then Israel will nuke Cairo and Damascus, the Arab world will never accept any form of peace with Israel for any reason, and the Soviets will get massive amounts of free PR...

If Israel is backed into a corner and starts nuking the capital cities of Soviet allies, then we won't be having this conversation because I and my tricycle got flash-burnt into the driveway slab of my parents house, a few hours later, during the full US-USSR exchange.
 
If Israel is backed into a corner and starts nuking the capital cities of Soviet allies, then we won't be having this conversation because I and my tricycle got flash-burnt into the driveway slab of my parents house, a few hours later, during the full US-USSR exchange.
I'm not confident that the USSR would go that far for expensive proxies, but if Israel even motions towards nuking the USSR the planet dies, I'm never born, and we get the worst possible option ever.
 
If Israel is backed into a corner and starts nuking the capital cities of Soviet allies, then we won't be having this conversation because I and my tricycle got flash-burnt into the driveway slab of my parents house, a few hours later, during the full US-USSR exchange.
Especially if a nice chap named James Eastland becomes President before that.
 
...no? Rwanda was a rather unusual situation brought on by active encouragement of ethnic and class divides by a colonial power for the better part of a century, followed by an increasingly fraught postcolonial situation and political currents dominated by radical ethnonationalists.

So the perpetrators of the rwanda genocide weren't rapist monsters. Why then did you dismiss the possibility of a rwanda scale genocide happening in israel with "the arabs aren't rapist monsters"?


Except that that view completely fails to account for the massive sea change that the Holocaust caused for public opinion of Jews in the Western world. (Romani not so much, because they get fucked over no matter what it seems) Post-'45, no Western power could be seen as insufficiently protective of Jews. It's still the easiest way to attack a Western politician--accuse them of antisemitism and voters immediately get leery.

dude,open antisemitism had become somewhat of a social faux pas,but I can only laugh at this idea the western public would somehow demand deceisive action for the sake of saving the jews,let alone doing so quickly enough to matter. This has no bearing with reality.
 
I'm not confident that the USSR would go that far for expensive proxies, but if Israel even motions towards nuking the USSR the planet dies, I'm never born, and we get the worst possible option ever.

The Planet dies in an early 70s nuclear war? what?
 
So the perpetrators of the rwanda genocide weren't rapist monsters. Why then did you dismiss the possibility of a rwanda scale genocide happening in israel with "the arabs aren't rapist monsters"?
1, the US is watching and wasn't in Rwanda.

2, the US gives a shit and didn't in Rwanda.

3, The Arab world in the '70s was familiar with the Holocaust in general detail and I have no doubt that Sadat at the minimum was well aware of what active genocide attempts would do to his position.
dude,open antisemitism had become somewhat of a social faux pas,but I can only laugh at this idea the western public would somehow demand deceisive action for the sake of saving the jews,let alone doing so quickly enough to matter. This has no bearing with reality.
Why? From where I sit, in a country where supporting Israel was mandatory for both parties for 50+ years, it has every bearing with reality.
 
Why? From where I sit, in a country where supporting Israel was mandatory for both parties for 50+ years, it has every bearing with reality.

It isn't anything specific to the jews,people in general just...don't do that. Can anyone recall strong,irresistible public pressure to go save another people from destruction,especially when doing so was putting your dick into an industrial warfare meatgrinder and not a couple hundred peace keepers in the backwater of an backwater?

And you would need to be quick,like a couple weeks at the most. And then,assuming you do have the forces there...then what? forced expulsion of several million people,a good chunk of them with living memory the last time that happened they found themselves in a camp and survived by sheer luck? Thats going to be an epic tragedy all around.
 
.no? Rwanda was a rather unusual situation brought on by active encouragement of ethnic and class divides by a colonial power for the better part of a century, followed by an increasingly fraught postcolonial situation and political currents dominated by radical ethnonationalists.
What's special about that? I can name a lot of countries with the same circumstances.
 
And then the entire population of Israel and Palestine dies under a hail of Soviet nuclear hellfire. Congratulations, Israel. Instead of making it out with a South Africa or Zimbabwe solution to your colonialism, you got your entire population killed. What exactly is the point?

Honestly? The logic is probably "Better we all die in an instant in a flash of light then face the showers and the camps again."

So use the nukes, all of them. Then turn open the state armories to the civilian population. Weapons for anyone who wants them. Give rifles to teenage boys, grenades to little girls, pistols to old grandmas. If the chosen people are to die, let them die in such a manner that the victors will mourn that day for hundreds of years to come.
 
...no? Rwanda was a rather unusual situation brought on by active encouragement of ethnic and class divides by a colonial power for the better part of a century, followed by an increasingly fraught postcolonial situation and political currents dominated by radical ethnonationalists.


Except that that view completely fails to account for the massive sea change that the Holocaust caused for public opinion of Jews in the Western world. (Romani not so much, because they get fucked over no matter what it seems) Post-'45, no Western power could be seen as insufficiently protective of Jews. It's still the easiest way to attack a Western politician--accuse them of antisemitism and voters immediately get leery.

Actually you are completely and totally wrong on this. Like utterly wrong in so many ways it's amazing.

It took decades of concerted PR effort to get the West to really give a shit about the holocaust. In the immediate post war world the Holocaust just wasn't really a factor in common conception. America did not heavily support Israel in 1948 in pretty much anyway at all beyond voting in the UN.
 
It isn't anything specific to the jews,people in general just...don't do that. Can anyone recall strong,irresistible public pressure to go save another people from destruction,especially when doing so was putting your dick into an industrial warfare meatgrinder and not a couple hundred peace keepers in the backwater of an backwater?

And you would need to be quick,like a couple weeks at the most. And then,assuming you do have the forces there...then what? forced expulsion of several million people,a good chunk of them with living memory the last time that happened they found themselves in a camp and survived by sheer luck? Thats going to be an epic tragedy all around.
Yeah, of course it would suck donkey ass, just like the sum experience of being thrown out of your home and treated like you're subhuman by someone who constantly whines at you about what a victim they are for how their parents were murdered and they were thrown out of their home, and your daughter dies because the colonizers don't allow you any infrastructure because that could be used to harbor terrorists and your son gets shot in the head for throwing a rock angrily at one of the occupiers' soldiers and your family has to live in a tent for the rest of your life and all the neighbors pay lip service to supporting you but are too afraid of the occupiers to actually help sucks donkey ass.

Ethnic cleansing sucks. It's evil. But it's one thing to be constantly ethnically cleansed and rejected by everybody, and it's another to be thrown out of your home (that your dad stole from someone else before you were born) and onto a ship waiting to take you to a country that will protect you.

And more importantly, this is the same USA that literally flew US military planes straight to Israel to hand them over after a quick re-fuel. We would absolutely step in if we thought there was a serious risk of Israel being ethnically cleansed by the Arabs.
What's special about that? I can name a lot of countries with the same circumstances.
Countries where the ethnonationalists took over the government and identification with one side or another was increasingly fanatical due to the relative lack of visible physical or cultural differences between the two groups?
 
Honestly? The logic is probably "Better we all die in an instant in a flash of light then face the showers again."
It's amazing, then, that I don't see any Romani people committing suicide en masse rather than be evicted by whatever European government's decided to shit on them this week. Quite frankly, I think that the alleged Israeli attitude in this regard is pure irrational paranoia.
Actually you are completely and totally wrong on this. Like utterly wrong in so many ways it's amazing.

It took decades of concerted PR effort to get the West to really give a shit about the holocaust. In the immediate post war world the Holocaust just wasn't really a factor in common conception. America did not heavily support Israel in 1948 in pretty much anyway at all beyond voting in the UN.
See, that doesn't square, at all, with anything that I've ever learned about history. Public hate of the Nazis and their crimes was extremely high post-WW2 and opinion on Jews and Judaism went from "mixed" to "holy shit the Nazis did WHAT???" pretty quickly as those soldiers started marching home. Not to mention, we were selling military gear to Haganah and other such scum at fire-sale prices, and I don't think that was entirely because the war had just finished.
 
Actually you are completely and totally wrong on this. Like utterly wrong in so many ways it's amazing.

It took decades of concerted PR effort to get the West to really give a shit about the holocaust. In the immediate post war world the Holocaust just wasn't really a factor in common conception. America did not heavily support Israel in 1948 in pretty much anyway at all beyond voting in the UN.
Yeah, if things turned out even a little differently, we would be talking about a Soviet-aligned Israel fighting pro-US Arab governments.
 
dude,open antisemitism had become somewhat of a social faux pas,but I can only laugh at this idea the western public would somehow demand deceisive action for the sake of saving the jews,let alone doing so quickly enough to matter. This has no bearing with reality.
Completely agree. The current awareness of the holocaust only really kicked in in the sixties. There are many stories of Jews returning from the camps, who found their original house occupied by someone else who refused to return it, and governments weren't really accomodating in these situations. There was sympathy, for the idea of Israel as a 'solution' for the Jewish problem, but the jews had to really work hard to get support (think Exodus) and weapons.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Okay let’s keep this conversation of 1973 war and stop the shit about imperialistic and war mongering and evil empires and sides.

There are two sides to each story and people will have different opinions. While there has been a lot of suffering in the region let’s not discuss it here.

This is about the parties that were involved in the 1973 war and their backers.

Please let’s kerp personal opinions and bias out of this.
 
It's amazing, then, that I don't see any Romani people committing suicide en masse rather than be evicted by whatever European government's decided to shit on them this week. Quite frankly, I think that the alleged Israeli attitude in this regard is pure irrational paranoia.

See, that doesn't square, at all, with anything that I've ever learned about history. Public hate of the Nazis and their crimes was extremely high post-WW2 and opinion on Jews and Judaism went from "mixed" to "holy shit the Nazis did WHAT???" pretty quickly as those soldiers started marching home. Not to mention, we were selling military gear to Haganah and other such scum at fire-sale prices, and I don't think that was entirely because the war had just finished.

No we were not selling military gear to Haganah. We've been over this before and you still don't get it.

Because a large part of what you know on the subject are ludicrous conspiracy theories or plain inaccuracies. In the past you've claimed

1) The US gave or sold Nuclear warheads to Israel and that's how they got a nuclear arsenal
2) The Israeli nuclear arsenal was a couple of bombs that couldn't reach the US
3) Haganah was a heavily British run and funded organization and the British government heavily supported the formation of Israel.
4) The US heavily supported the formation of Israel beyond the UN vote and gave/sold massive quantities of weapons to Israel in 1948.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Morally you're right on the issue in terms of Israeli treatment of Palestinians for the most part.

But in terms of facts about how things played out, the diplomacy of whom supported whom, and a bunch of other stuff you've shown you really really don't understand a lot of the material and have proven extremely resistant to people pointing out when your saying utter nonsense.
 
It's amazing, then, that I don't see any Romani people committing suicide en masse rather than be evicted by whatever European government's decided to shit on them this week. Quite frankly, I think that the alleged Israeli attitude in this regard is pure irrational paranoia.

How irrational is it when all your neighbors have been spouting propaganda about the violent destruction of your nation for DECADES on end? How irrational is it when everyone in your nation knows full well what happened last time the jews just rolled over? In the same scenario, I would GLADLY start nuking my neighbors.

At any rate, I suppose the best case scenario for the Arabs is the US parking a couple carriers off their coast and telling everyone to sit down and shut up before they start sailing into the wind, and from there hoping for a "Ceasefire in Place" setup before any counterattacks.
 
Yeah, if things turned out even a little differently, we would be talking about a Soviet-aligned Israel fighting pro-US Arab governments.

Yep. The Soviets far more heavily supported the formation of Israel in the UN then the US. The Soviets also helped organize the only formal albeit secret deal by the proto IDF to buy weaponry from the Czechs. At the time the Arab world was dominated by French/British colonies or allied semi puppet monarchies.

Post war the Soviets changed their tune quick as those Arab monarchies started falling and the rise of Arab Socialism began.
 
Top