Isolated war between British Empire and Japan in the 1940s

MrP

Banned
The German light Cruisers were some of the worst ever designed by a major poser and ther Hv Cruiser power systems were to fraglae to spend much time at sea . Now German subs were better than most navys subs but the japaniese actuly had better subs then they did but not sub tactics .

The Dutch Cruisers were some of the best in the world at the time they were build . I have used both Dutch and German cruisers against the Japaniese in naval minitures and the Dutch ships are much better i surgace combat then the German Cruisers .

Well, if next time you clarify you're talking solely about WWII cruisers, old boy, when I'm talking about battlecruisers, we'll not end up at cross purposes, will we? :)
 
Ahh thanks for clarifying, I was thinking of Tromp and Hemmskerk (remember the story of them being towed over so the Germans couldn't get their hands on them). It's been nearly 20 years since I was into that sort of info so details are often vague.

Well, I was only talking about the battlecruisers, old boy. But the cruisers aren't very numerous, either, tbh. 5 in total, 2 ready, one not yet fitted out, 2 stuck incomplete for the rest of the war.

De Ruyter (6,000t standard, 7548 full load, 7 * 150mm guns, 32 knots) launched '35, sunk '42
Tromp and Jacob van Heemskerk (3787t standard, 4800t full load, 6*150mm guns, 33.5 knots) Launched 24.5.37 and 16.9.39 respectively "Both ships transferred to the UK after the German invasion of the Low Countries but Heemskerk had not completed fitting out."
De Zeven Provincien and Eendracht, enlarged De Ruyter types. "Construction was not far advanced when the German invasion brought a halt to proceedings and although their new owners carried out some work on the ships very little further was accomplished until after the war."
 

MrP

Banned
Ahh thanks for clarifying, I was thinking of Tromp and Hemmskerk (remember the story of them being towed over so the Germans couldn't get their hands on them). It's been nearly 20 years since I was into that sort of info so details are often vague.

I'm just happy I got the chance to use my new Conway's, old man. :D
 
I'm just happy I got the chance to use my new Conway's, old man. :D

Old boy which ones do you have . Ihave the 1860-1905 , 1922-46 and the two book set 1947-82 set . wich I have keep up to date tell 1996 .
 

MrP

Banned
Old boy which ones do you have . Ihave the 1860-1905 , 1922-46 and the two book set 1947-82 set . wich I have keep up to date tell 1996 .

I recently got the 1922-1946 and the 1947-1995 ones. I already had the 1860-1905 and 1906-1921. So I'm a dashed happy chappy! :)
 

Thande

Donor
Hmm, this sparked more discussion than I expected. Glad to hear it's doable.

It would probably require the war in Europe for Japan to sense weakness, though. Say OTL up to 1940, but then the German invasion of France bogs down for MrP-type reasons. The Japanese decide Britain and France are too engaged to argue if they sweep up their colonies at the same time as the Dutch East Indies (as the Netherlands are occupied by Germany). The first wave of the Japanese attacks go in in 1941, but then the war in Europe abruptly ceases - supplies run out, Hitler is assassinated, there's a revolution, Soviets attack Germany as they maybe-possibly were planning on in OTL, whatever. Status quo ante or Germany gives up the annexations after 1938, although they might keep them for a while if the French are more worried about the Soviets are going to overrun everywhere. So the Japanese suddenly find themselves facing the full might of Britain and part of that of France (I assume France would still be mainly concerned with settling the European situation first).
 
Hmm, this sparked more discussion than I expected. Glad to hear it's doable.

It would probably require the war in Europe for Japan to sense weakness, though. Say OTL up to 1940, but then the German invasion of France bogs down for MrP-type reasons. The Japanese decide Britain and France are too engaged to argue if they sweep up their colonies at the same time as the Dutch East Indies (as the Netherlands are occupied by Germany). The first wave of the Japanese attacks go in in 1941, but then the war in Europe abruptly ceases - supplies run out, Hitler is assassinated, there's a revolution, Soviets attack Germany as they maybe-possibly were planning on in OTL, whatever. Status quo ante or Germany gives up the annexations after 1938, although they might keep them for a while if the French are more worried about the Soviets are going to overrun everywhere. So the Japanese suddenly find themselves facing the full might of Britain and part of that of France (I assume France would still be mainly concerned with settling the European situation first).

Thande

Sounds like a suitable way you might get the basic scenario.

There is one other factor that I don't think anyone's mentioned, at least from a quick run through. The scenario still has Japan in China, which will tie up a huge amount of their armed forces and gives great opportunities for the British when they move onto the offensive later on.

It would depend on the affects of the European war as to how much, or little, chance the Japanese have of surviving with any fragment of their empire. At worst, with say a sudden German collapse after about a year of fighting in western Europe, Britain is not only tooled up but it has gained a considerable amount of experience in air and ground units. The naval programme may well have taken a hit in such a scenario, I think the Lion's were effectively cancelled after Sept 39. However this could work in Britain's favour as the early Japanese successes will probably suggest that new BBs are not a high priority, so the resources freed up go into new carriers and support vessels. Also simple factors like secure supply lines and the ending of the black-out will considerably boost British military production capacity. Might be a bit different if the fighting in Europe has resulted in a lot of heavy casualties but even so, after victory in Europe and the Japanese stab in the back, I think there will be more than enough determination to finish the war.

Steve
 

MrP

Banned
Thande

Sounds like a suitable way you might get the basic scenario.

There is one other factor that I don't think anyone's mentioned, at least from a quick run through. The scenario still has Japan in China, which will tie up a huge amount of their armed forces and gives great opportunities for the British when they move onto the offensive later on.

It would depend on the affects of the European war as to how much, or little, chance the Japanese have of surviving with any fragment of their empire. At worst, with say a sudden German collapse after about a year of fighting in western Europe, Britain is not only tooled up but it has gained a considerable amount of experience in air and ground units. The naval programme may well have taken a hit in such a scenario, I think the Lion's were effectively cancelled after Sept 39. However this could work in Britain's favour as the early Japanese successes will probably suggest that new BBs are not a high priority, so the resources freed up go into new carriers and support vessels. Also simple factors like secure supply lines and the ending of the black-out will considerably boost British military production capacity. Might be a bit different if the fighting in Europe has resulted in a lot of heavy casualties but even so, after victory in Europe and the Japanese stab in the back, I think there will be more than enough determination to finish the war.

Steve

Oh, I have a post somewhere about the Lions. It's copied verbatim from a book about RN BBs of WWII. I shall see if I can find it. The gist was that the Lions kept losing out to destroyers, cruisers and the like, which were more flexible. If there's no other major threat and the RN feels it has enough lighter vessels to deal with the IJN, then the Lions could be back on the drawing board.

EDIT: Buggrit. Can't find it. I can fetch the dates of committees that discussed putting the Lions back on the drawing board, if you like. :)
 
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Oh, I have a post somewhere about the Lions. It's copied verbatim from a book about RN BBs of WWII. I shall see if I can find it. The gist was that the Lions kept losing out to destroyers, cruisers and the like, which were more flexible. If there's no other major threat and the RN feels it has enough lighter vessels to deal with the IJN, then the Lions could be back on the drawing board.

EDIT: Buggrit. Can't find it. I can fetch the dates of committees that discussed putting the Lions back on the drawing board, if you like. :)

MrP

I think it would depend on the European war. Unless it looks like it would be over pretty quickly and not drain down too much resources, nor there be an overwhelming need for cruisers and destroyers I think the Lions would probably still be put on hold. Just a case that the big long term constructions like BBs tended to be put on hold unless they are near completion. A similar sort of thing occurred in WWI. Therefore I think there would be a good probability that the Lions would be delayed. [I suspect that without the dire state of the RN battlefleet due to the Washington and London Treaties, the KGV class may well have been delayed similarly].

I know historically there were various plans to complete them later, or even post-war, including designs as battleship-carriers. This could also well occur after the shorter European war in this scenario. Alternatively construction might well continue but at a reduced rate and then pick up after the European conflict is over and a Pacific one possibly looming.

Steve
 

MrP

Banned
MrP

I think it would depend on the European war. Unless it looks like it would be over pretty quickly and not drain down too much resources, nor there be an overwhelming need for cruisers and destroyers I think the Lions would probably still be put on hold. Just a case that the big long term constructions like BBs tended to be put on hold unless they are near completion. A similar sort of thing occurred in WWI. Therefore I think there would be a good probability that the Lions would be delayed. [I suspect that without the dire state of the RN battlefleet due to the Washington and London Treaties, the KGV class may well have been delayed similarly].

I know historically there were various plans to complete them later, or even post-war, including designs as battleship-carriers. This could also well occur after the shorter European war in this scenario. Alternatively construction might well continue but at a reduced rate and then pick up after the European conflict is over and a Pacific one possibly looming.

Steve

Oh, you're quite probably right, old boy. :)Here's the excerpt I was referring to (p.317, Raven and Roberts, British Battleships of World War Two):

Lion.JPG
 
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