Isolated Norse Greenland colonises the Americas

In my opinion the more imprtant knowledge that could get transferred is Norse ship and navigation skills. Top of the line for their time, they'd both increase food production greatly, and allow the Americas the kind of fast trade and knowledge-exchange multiplier it was lacking.

But it´s not easy to transfer, nor all that competitive.
What could be a huge thing is transferring Norse cool summer crops (barley, rye, oats) to Skraelings.
For a leader of heathen Vinland - how about Freydis?
 
IMHO you could get "Norse" settlement in North America, but I doubt you'd get prolonged reinforcement from Europe especially once Greenland fails.
That's fine.
Of necessity the Norse will intermarry with the Native Americans at a very high rate, although I expect when the OTL discoverers arrive they will be ethnically distinct from the "pure" Native Americans. The big question is what skills and knowledge have transferred to North America before the flow from the east stops. Iron work/blacksmithing? Boat building? Written language? If key knowledge skills are established without need for reinforcement, then the syncretic Norse/Native culture is there when other Europeans arrive, if not the Norse probably get absorbed in to local structures.
Iron working will probably be usefull anywhere in North America, therefore it may be the most likely technology to be kept by the Norse. Written language would likely be the least likely to be kept by the Norse or transmitted to Amerindians. Litteracy was probably low in Norse Greenalandic society.
An interesting question is religion - if no priests come or when any that come die, what happens? Are the Norse that emigrate crypto-pagans? Absent reinforcement I expect any religion that is there will not be what the new visitors would consider Christian, but but Catholics and Protestants would consider a heresy. Naturally if they are essentially pagan...
Norse Greenlanders had substantial amounts of ancestry of the British Isles and Ireland. Most of this ancestry were due to Norse men bringing with them women from these areas willingly or not(slaves). Due to this import of Christian women, i assume that Greenlandic society also imported a force of christianisation.
An old picture of Vikings who traveled from Norway and the country in the lush South West Greenland, is now likely to change slightly.
New research results show that the Vikings did not only have Nordic blood in the years.
DNA analyzes reveal that the blood was mixed with celtic blood, probably from the British Isles.
As in the Faroe Islands and Iceland
Danish archaeologists are currently in the process of the first regional study of the Nordic residents in South West Greenland - settlements dating back to 985.
In a cemetery outside an old church they found a large mass grave with many skeletons. Some of the skeletons have now become dated. It turns out that they originate from about 1000 years.
- The samples from the skeletons were sent to Denmark for DNA analysis. The research results are still not published, but the first results suggest, a little surprising, that the people in the grave are more Celtic than Nordic, says Jette Arneborg.
She is a museum inspector and senior researcher at the National Museum, and one of the Danish archaeologists who have been involved in the work in Greenland.
DNA analyzes were performed by Linnea Melcior at Anthropological Laboratory at Panum Institute, led by Professor Niels Lynnerup.
"We have always known that the Norwegians traveled a lot, and we also know that the early inhabitants of the Faroe Islands and Iceland had been joined by Celtic genes, but now we have seen it in Greenland too," says Arneborg.
Previous surveys in the area
The Danish archaeologists participate in the research network Nabo, the North Atlantic Bioarchaeological Organization. Arneborg has been working on the project since 2005, among other things with Christian Koch Madsen, who studies prehistoric archeology at the University of Copenhagen:
"As a precursor to the excavations themselves, we traveled around the area to look at the ruins; a work we performed between 2005-2007. We looked around 900 ruins, including farms and churches, says Christian Koch Madsen.
Previous surveys and excavations, under the direction of the Danish archaeologist C.L. Vebæk, took place in 1939 and again between 1948 and 1951, but it is the first time a survey has been carried out involving more excavations.
"We have continued with C.L. Vebæk's work, but we have changed some of his interpretations, says Arneborg and Koch Madsen.
Celtic islet with Nordic culture
Although DNA analyzes show that the early inhabitants not only had Nordic blood in the years, there is no doubt that they are talking about Nordic settlements.
"It is clear that the residents were Nordic, for all they did, the culture, and the way to get food was Nordic," says Arneborg.
Surveys on the present population of the Faroe Islands and Iceland show that it was primarily the women who were Celtic, which may indicate that the Norwegian Vikings left Norway, via the British Isles - where they brought women - since then to proceed further into the northern Atlantic to the Faroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland.
"This may also explain why Christianity has come so early in these areas," concludes Arneborg.
https://forskning.no/arkeologi/2010/03/vikinger-hadde-keltisk-blod-i-arene
 
But I don't think the natives had any kind of political unity. The Norse would only have encountered a couple of the hunter-gatherer bands occasionally. The number of women available after the diseases there would have been drowned by the numbers of Norse.
Would the Norse bring any diseases to North America? Would not due to the small number of settlers and the cold climate the risk of disease be lower? Perhaps the Norse diseases would just be a milder form of Colombian exchange?
 
But it´s not easy to transfer, nor all that competitive.
What could be a huge thing is transferring Norse cool summer crops (barley, rye, oats) to Skraelings.
For a leader of heathen Vinland - how about Freydis?

Locally, a crop transfer to the Skraelings would be big. Ship tech would be big all over the continent(s). You could get the Norse crops to the three sisters:)

Freydis was a bit of a violent bastard. A lot like her father who was considered to bad-temperd to be a berserker. But maybe that is exactly the kind of monarch a place like this needs. I've always gotten the impression that viking norms of "womans place" was a bit like our norms that sex is for married people only. I.e. given lip service.

It would make for an interesting gender dynamic in Vinland if it starts that way.

Maybe if there were some pagan strongholds in Greenland, then a religious conflict may promt a exodus? Would be a intersting plot for a TL if non-Christian Norse had moved to Vinland.

Icelanders were people who left Norway because they were too independent-minded to be ruled by a king, to avoid christianisation and for free land. Greenlanders were people who were too independent of rowdy for Iceland again, and hey, free land. We know that one fellow who were promoted to Bishop of Greenland fell to his knees and begged not to be, because "He was not good with difficult people"

I could see the Greenlanders keeping paganism going.
 
Would the Norse bring any diseases to North America? Would not due to the small number of settlers and the cold climate the risk of disease be lower? Perhaps the Norse diseases would just be a milder form of Colombian exchange?

Eric the Reds wife was quite christian. One of the first things she had done in Greenland was make a little church and graveyard. It was replaced a few years alter by a larger church and the graveyard fell out of use. Things decay slowly in that climate, and the graveyard, which only held bodies of the initial settler generation of Greenlanders, has been excavated.

I am on vacation, but I do have a book back home that goes into some detail about what they suffered from.
 
Eric the Reds wife was quite christian. One of the first things she had done in Greenland was make a little church and graveyard. It was replaced a few years alter by a larger church and the graveyard fell out of use. Things decay slowly in that climate, and the graveyard, which only held bodies of the initial settler generation of Greenlanders, has been excavated.

I am on vacation, but I do have a book back home that goes into some detail about what they suffered from.
Maybe you can post something from the book once you come home? ;)
 
Historically Greenland was part of the Diocese of Nidaros, may this have been to distant? Would Greenland having a more native church infrastructure be more connected to Europe?
 
Historically Greenland was part of the Diocese of Nidaros, may this have been to distant? Would Greenland having a more native church infrastructure be more connected to Europe?

No. Never a part of diocese.
Part of province. And that was very relevant.
OTL Greenland was part of Diocese of Skalholt from 1056 to 1126, thereafter Diocese of Gardar.
And part of Province of Bremen till 1104, then Province of Lund till 1152, then Province of Nidaros.

Now imagine a significant Christian Vinland settlement.

OTL, Iceland had 2 dioceses (Holar was split from Skalholt in 1106), Faroes had one for themselves since 1047, Orkney and Shetland one for two since 1035.
In 1126, Greenland was a sizable Christian settlement - but, like Faeroes, nowhere left to expand.

TTL, with Vinland an appreciable Christian settlement and a potential missionary field - I´d expect a Bishop of Vinland quite early. Say 1107 (1106 for Holar was no coincidence).

And a bigger political butterflies...
OTL, in 1151, Papacy made a political decision to give each Scandinavian kingdom their own Archbishop.
Norway got Nidaros in 1152. In Sweden, civil wars delayed founding of Province of Uppsala till 1164, but the decision had been made.

Now, Norwegian kingdom obviously got the dioceses they ruled. Norway, Orkney, Faroes, Sodor and Man.
But the commonwealths of Iceland and Greenland were just 3 dioceses between them - poor and no prospects. Which is why they were subordinated to Nidaros.

In TTL, where Diocese of Vinland is an expanding settlement and missionary area?
An obvious reason to make Vinland a metropolis, too.
And given the existence of Province of Vinland, who would Iceland prefer? Archbishop of Nidaros (controlled by King of Norway) or Archbishop of Vinland?
 
For a leader of heathen Vinland - how about Freydis?
not without some earlier PODs... it's pretty clear in the sagas that Freydis' expedition was a 'get rich' scheme, not a real colonization attempt. Although, oddly enough, the mostly male expedition did take 6 women along (including her). And yeah, Freydis was a bit... off. She managed to henpeck her husband into killing half the men who went along, and then killed the other 5 women herself. To make her the leader of a real colonization attempt, you'd have to change several things...
 
What would the carrying capacity of Norse be around in New Foundland if they established a successful colony?

Newfoundland is slightly bigger than Iceland, and appreciably bigger than Ireland.
Newfoundland also is considerably warmer and flatter than Iceland, though much colder than Ireland.

My guestimate is 100 000 people for High Medieval Newfoundland.
 
Newfoundland is slightly bigger than Iceland, and appreciably bigger than Ireland.
Newfoundland also is considerably warmer and flatter than Iceland, though much colder than Ireland.

My guestimate is 100 000 people for High Medieval Newfoundland.
Population may increase even more due to available space for settlement, assuming that North America remain sparsely populated.

Due to the cold temprature, the Norse might benefit from lower disease loads.
 
Population may increase even more due to available space for settlement, assuming that North America remain sparsely populated.

Due to the cold temprature, the Norse might benefit from lower disease loads.

That 100 000 would be just Newfoundland, yes.
Not counting mainland Maritimes and Quebec.
High Medieval population was something like 300 000 for Norway, 500 000 for Sweden, including 100 000 in Finland.

Freydis' behaviour is NOT "pretty clear". Erik the Red's Saga and Greenlanders' Saga give completely different accounts. One of them is the one where Freydis rallies men as 8 months pregnant.
 
That 100 000 would be just Newfoundland, yes.
Not counting mainland Maritimes and Quebec.
High Medieval population was something like 300 000 for Norway, 500 000 for Sweden, including 100 000 in Finland.

Freydis' behaviour is NOT "pretty clear". Erik the Red's Saga and Greenlanders' Saga give completely different accounts. One of them is the one where Freydis rallies men as 8 months pregnant.
How fast may a Norse population in Vinland grow compared to the core of the Norse world(Norway, Sweden, Denmark)?

Let's say that the Norse population that moved to Vinland in 1300 AD was X, how large might the population be in 1500 AD.
X could be
  • 100
  • 250
  • 500
  • 1000
  • 2000
  • 4000
  • 5000
individuals.
 
The Frozen Echo: Greenland and the Exploration of North America ca. A.D. 100-1500

Publisher's description:

It is now generally accepted that Leif Eriksson sailed from Greenland across the Davis Strait and made landfalls on the North American continent almost a thousand years ago, but what happened in this vast area during the next five hundred years has long been a source of disagreement among scholars. Using new archeological, scientific, and documentary information (much of it in Scandinavian languages that are a bar to most Western historians), this book confronts many of the unanswered questions about early exploration and colonization along the shores of the Davis Strait. The author brings together two distinct but tangential fields of inquiry: the history of medieval Greenland and its connections with the Norse discovery of North America, and fifteenth-century British maritime history and pre-colonial voyages to North America, including that of John Cabot. In order to evaluate the situation in Norse Greenland at the end of the fifteenth century (when documented English and Portuguese voyages of northern exploration began), the author follows the colony's development―its domestic economy and foreign trade and its cultural and ecclesiastical affinities―from its inception in the tenth century. In the process, she looks critically at commonly held views that have gone unchallenged until now. Among the questions about which the author sets forth new evidence and conclusions are: the extent to which Greenlanders explored and exploited North America after Leif Eriksson, the reasons for the baffling disappearance of the Norse settlement in Greenland, the connection between their disappearance and the beginning of the voyages of exploration that began around A.D. 1500, the routes by which information concerning previous voyages traveled, the history before Cabot of the advance of English fishing fleets from Icelandic waters to the coasts of Labrador, and the influence of the roman Catholic Church on Norse Greenland.

I had read this book several years ago. It argues that the Norse Greenlanders survived for long enough to be in contact with merchants from Bristol, there as a result of the 15th-century Grand Banks cod trade (which does appear to have existed several decades before Columbus -- in fact Columbus may have been aware of its existence before his voyages). The cod trade needed people onshore to help with the fishery (smoking or salting the fish, along with various support functions), and one merchant in particular (do not recall his name) may have organized a mid-15th-century expedition to transport the Greenlanders to Labrador for that purpose. The evidence is divided between numerous records of the time, that had never been pulled together before. I do not know enough to have an expert opinion on the hypothesis, but it certainly seems to plausibly hang together.
 
How fast may a Norse population in Vinland grow compared to the core of the Norse world(Norway, Sweden, Denmark)?
I tried to approximate it.
The population of Quebec French increased 100 times, from 60 000 to 6 millions, with little immigration in 2 centuries from 1760 to 1960. That is 10-fold in a century.
12th century Norse will not have 19th century medicine. Assume 4-fold increase in a century - doubling in 50 years - without immigration.
Iceland had 20 000...30 000 people in 11th century, probably over 10 000 by 930.
Greenland had 1000 people sailing there in 986, 560 arrived. More ships came later - high medieval 3000 was reached in a few decades.

So, my example numbers:
in every 50 years, 2x the previous population+5000 on account of new immigrants from Greenland and Iceland
2500 by 1050
10 000 by 1100 (more than Greenland)
25 000 by 1150
55 000 by 1200
115 000 by 1250 (Newfoundland fully settled, spilling over to mainland).
 
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