Islamic Conquest of France

What was the most likely dates France could have fallen to Islamic conquerors and how long could they have held it?

721 seems the most obvious. The Battle of Toulouse pretty much ended all hopes for further expansion into Europe. If the battle had been won would it wouldn't have led directly to the conquest of France, but it would have deprived Charles Martel of veteran soldiers and even his power in the region later on at the Battle of Tours.

Some have argued Muslim gains were already pretty much at the limit of their expansion.
 
The Muslim gains had peaked at that point and any further conquests would have either been in northern Spain or some minor raids in France.

If you really want more Arabs in Europe, the better choice is a successful siege of Constantinople. If that was done, the Balkans, and the Slavs, would have probably converted to Islam.
 
@fjihr say something, with not ERE and if muslim beat martel a whole south france-medditeranean islamic region is possible(with italy sandwiched there)
 
Impossible.

Even al-Andalus was a stretch for the Muslims at that point; it was really just overrun by a small number of Berbers. The problem is that even if you have the Moors push farther than Septimania, your entire army consists of Berbers who are treated poorly by a very small number of Arabs. The only way you get a sustained push is if you butterfly away the Berber Revolt somehow. Even with that, it's one thing to topple the Visigoths, but at this point the Muslims are badly overextended; taking France would be too much. In fact, around this time (719-720ish) the Caliph actually contemplates cutting off al-Andalus and abandoning it, just because it's so far away and impossible to properly administer.

Probably the only way you get a Muslim France is if Constantinople collapses and the party that pushes into North Africa decides instead to get on a bunch of ships at Mahdia and start eating into Europe from Italy on up, with a smashing degree of success.
 

Deleted member 97083

Not impossible. Sure, it couldn't have happened while al-Andalus itself was a brand new, overstretched realm... but if Charlemagne never existed, or the Franks continued to fall into infighting leaving France in chaos, then a later, consolidated al-Andalus with a significant native Iberian contingent could try to conquer France.
 
Probably the only way you get a Muslim France is if Constantinople collapses and the party that pushes into North Africa decides instead to get on a bunch of ships at Mahdia and start eating into Europe from Italy on up, with a smashing degree of success.

If Constantinople succeeded, surely that would make the Arabs more Eastern Europe-oriented, sending missionaries to convert the Slavs, Bulgars, and the like to Islam, thus destroying any possibility of an invasion of France?
 
If Constantinople succeeded, surely that would make the Arabs more Eastern Europe-oriented, sending missionaries to convert the Slavs, Bulgars, and the like to Islam, thus destroying any possibility of an invasion of France?
Well, with butterflies, all things are possible, really.
 
I strongly disagree with the idea that the Islamic conquest of France is inherently impossible.

First, the objection that all the Muslims could do was launch raiding parties into France seems to fall to the wayside when taking into account that all they could do was launch small raiding parties into Spain. And yet, they conquered Spain. If France were to have other problems, then the same general thing could happen. They did, after all, make common cause with the Duchy of Aquitaine. Second, the objection that the invasion would rely too much on the Berbers... sure. But the question is whether or not Muslims could conquer France, not whether or not the Caliphate could hold it.
 
Right, but lightning doesn't strike twice all that often, and eventually you're going to run into someone who can push back the raiding parties.
 
Could their be a way to make the Frankish border with the Saxons and the Frisians violent in 720-721? Nothing like a two front war to make things different.

That could be fun.
 
I strongly disagree with the idea that the Islamic conquest of France is inherently impossible.

First, the objection that all the Muslims could do was launch raiding parties into France seems to fall to the wayside when taking into account that all they could do was launch small raiding parties into Spain. And yet, they conquered Spain. If France were to have other problems, then the same general thing could happen. They did, after all, make common cause with the Duchy of Aquitaine. Second, the objection that the invasion would rely too much on the Berbers... sure. But the question is whether or not Muslims could conquer France, not whether or not the Caliphate could hold it.

Yes, the conquest of Spain would seem practically ASB to us if it hadn't actually happened. If they win at Toulouse or Poitiers, who knows? Many of the Arab conquests began as raids that turned out to be successful.
 
If the Muslims over extend themselves into France could the Berbers use this as an opportunity to turn on their colonial Arab conquerors and liberate North Africa from Spain with an experienced Berber Spanish army?
 
What I don't understand is why the Berber Revolt isn't delayed if Tours is a victory for the Faithful. If raiding continues, doesn't the booty economy continue?
 
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