Islamic China

As the title says, how would it be possible for Islam to become the major dominant religion in mainland China and is adopted by the Han Chinese? I won't put any specific date, but lets say that Islam would arrive during the late Tang or the early Song Dynasty.

One way I think Islam in China would be possible is if Islamic nomads travel from the west and then manage to conquer China during one of its inter-dynastic periods of chaos (ala the Mongols and the Qing), or like how Buddhism spread into China during the chaos after the Han Dynasty. Of course, Islam in China would take on a distinctly Chinese character, so therefore, what type of characteristics would Chinese Islam take?
 
Well, the main thing I see is that, like in Persia and India, the native religion(s) are going to have to accorded some respect, Taoism and Buddhism would probably be accorded dhimmi status, like Hinduism and Zoroastrianism. Confucian ideals would still be used to govern the state and the Mandarinate would most likely be retained.

Two big things that will likely make this difficult is the historical Chinese abhorrence of mutilation, that is, castration, and the Muslim prohibition on pork.

Just my opinion, I might be way off here.
 
Two big things that will likely make this difficult is the historical Chinese abhorrence of mutilation, that is, castration, and the Muslim prohibition on pork.

Just my opinion, I might be way off here.

Historical abhorrence of mutilation? Have you not witnessed the eunuchs that serve the emperor? I don't think that the Muslim prohibition on pork would be hard to get around either, as the Chinese version of the Koran would likely be altered by some Islamic Emperor to make it more palatable to Han Chinese.

The Chinese Islamists would also probably conjure up this story of how both Confucius and Mohammed were prophets sent by Allah, and that Muhammed had been inspired by Confucius, or that Confucius himself along with his sayings would be written into the Koran.
 
Historical abhorrence of mutilation? Have you not witnessed the eunuchs that serve the emperor? I don't think that the Muslim prohibition on pork would be hard to get around either, as the Chinese version of the Koran would likely be altered by some Islamic Emperor to make it more palatable to Han Chinese.

The Chinese Islamists would also probably conjure up this story of how both Confucius and Mohammed were prophets sent by Allah, and that Muhammed had been inspired by Confucius, or that Confucius himself along with his sayings would be written into the Koran.

Yeah, eunuchs were regarded with quite a lot of distaste, occasionally even hatred and fear, due to their status.

As for the rest of it, well, that would make Sinislam quite heretical and encourage more invasions from the very Sunni west.
 
Well, the main thing I see is that, like in Persia and India, the native religion(s) are going to have to accorded some respect, Taoism and Buddhism would probably be accorded dhimmi status, like Hinduism and Zoroastrianism. Confucian ideals would still be used to govern the state and the Mandarinate would most likely be retained.

Two big things that will likely make this difficult is the historical Chinese abhorrence of mutilation, that is, castration, and the Muslim prohibition on pork.

Just my opinion, I might be way off here.

As said, there were a lot of eunuchs in China - mostly around the Emperor - and at times they held enormous power...IIRC, at one point castration was actually illegalized in order to check their power. So that's not an issue here. Plus, no where in the Quran does it say, "Go, castrate some folks or else you're sinning," it's just Islam permits polygamy (as do a number of other religions), and that eunuchs are good for guarding harems.

As for pork, well: the largest Muslim nation in the world eats pork regularly (Indonesia, for those not in the know). Presumably if pork is important enough, local imams will put it under the "You shouldn't eat it, but it's no big deal" category (like, for example, horses - or at least, that's what my Iranian friend tells me)
 
If the Han-Chinese would convert to either Christianity or Islam, or any other monotheistic faith I think they would make their own adaptation of it.

We´d probably have three branches of Islam, Sunni, Shia and Chinese Islam.

Also I don´t think forcefully converting China will do the trick. Maybe it would help to have a barbarian islamic dynasty for a while but in the end the missionaries must do the conversions peacefully.

This is a recurring question. To bad I can´t add anything to it since I know so little about China´s history.
 
You don't assimilate China, China assimilates you, meaning that China will probably influence Islam more than the other way. It would also seek to spread Islam through its tributary states, so Vietnam is one place that might go Muslim too especially with Champa in it's south.
 
If there was a strong Byzantine Empire and a weak Sassanid Empire in the east then the Islamic 'explosion' could be funneled east, across the steppe and into China. However, as said above, you don't assimilate China, China assimilates you. Islam would probably develop along very different lines, I wonder how the Islamic scholars would react to Confucianism?
 
As said, there were a lot of eunuchs in China - mostly around the Emperor - and at times they held enormous power...IIRC, at one point castration was actually illegalized in order to check their power. So that's not an issue here. Plus, no where in the Quran does it say, "Go, castrate some folks or else you're sinning," it's just Islam permits polygamy (as do a number of other religions), and that eunuchs are good for guarding harems.

Bloody hel, I just realized I typed castration when I meant circumcison. :eek::eek::eek:

My bad.

As for pork, well: the largest Muslim nation in the world eats pork regularly (Indonesia, for those not in the know). Presumably if pork is important enough, local imams will put it under the "You shouldn't eat it, but it's no big deal" category (like, for example, horses - or at least, that's what my Iranian friend tells me)

Well, yeah, that does seem to be a likely conclusion, but that seems likely to take a while to happen, if we're positing conversion by invasion and rule instead of missionaries and traders. We are, right?
 
One difference I think that would set Chinese Islam apart is that I can't see the Chinese tolerating any injunction that the holy book can only be read in a specific foreign (read: barbarian) language. I think the Koran would very quickly be translated into and used in Chinese, and Chinese would become, worldwide, as much the language of Islam as Arabic. Perhaps even more so, given China's tremendous population and influence. Perhaps even Westerners who converted to Islam (Cat Stevens, Cassius Clay, et al.) would take Chinese names rather than Arabic ones.
 
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Keenir

Banned
If the Han-Chinese would convert to either Christianity or Islam, or any other monotheistic faith I think they would make their own adaptation of it.

definately.


We´d probably have three major branches of Islam, Sunni, Shia and Chinese Islam.

fixed it for you - it was an easy slip to make. no worries.

This is a recurring question. To bad I can´t add anything to it since I know so little about China´s history.

and its one of the best recurring questions.


As for pork, well: the largest Muslim nation in the world eats pork regularly (Indonesia, for those not in the know). Presumably if pork is important enough, local imams will put it under the "You shouldn't eat it, but it's no big deal" category (like, for example, horses - or at least, that's what my Iranian friend tells me)

entirely likely....or they'll permit pork, and forbid another animal.

As for the rest of it, well, that would make Sinislam quite heretical and encourage more invasions from the very Sunni west.

pft, if anything the Sunnis will sit down, shut up, and like it!;) (after all, in OTL, Baghdad was regularly sacked by Tibetans!)
 
Nah, they would probably call it the 'Caliphate of Heaven', or something like that.

Also, if Islam spreads to China, why stop there? Korea and Japan were influenced by Chinese civilization, and for instance Buddhism did spread to those regions, so therefore could you imagine an Islamic Korea or an Islamic Japan? Keep in mind they'll probably be spreading the sinicized version of Islam, so we can only imagine how it'll turn out there.
 
Nah, they would probably call it the 'Caliphate of Heaven', or something like that.

Also, if Islam spreads to China, why stop there? Korea and Japan were influenced by Chinese civilization, and for instance Buddhism did spread to those regions, so therefore could you imagine an Islamic Korea or an Islamic Japan? Keep in mind they'll probably be spreading the sinicized version of Islam, so we can only imagine how it'll turn out there.

Of course things wouldn´t stop there. It´s a given with China the faith will spread to Korea, Japan, Vietnam etc.

But let´s consider:

A. How long did it take for Buddhism to "win over" China.
B. How did Buddhism sinicize?
C. Why were the Chinese receptive to a small faith from India?
Sorry: here is a link to wikipedia, (of course other sources are better, but for a quick superficial glance to be able to have a conversation here it is).

I know that buddhist missionaries did early on meet hostility, but their timing in China´s history must have been a good one.

In comparison to how non-chinese ideas have won China over, or not succeeded:

1. In the 19th century there was a rebellion lead by a certain Hong Xiuquan. It was influenced by christianity, and was christianity in the sense that mormonism is. (That is very different from western mainstream versions of it). How did it fail, could it have succeeded?
2. Communism. Chinese communism definitely is a brand of it´s own. Very nationalistic in many aspects. And obviously influenced by a huge character: Mao.

Could a charismatic rebel like Hong or Mao play the pivotal role? What would be the best timing for such a leader?
 
Here's the reason why Buddhism became so receptive in China. Because it was during one of those inter-dynastal periods in which after the Han Dynasty fell, there was the barbarian invasion of the Xianbei which took over Northern China. Since Confucianism at the time of the 300 year long period of division was discredited because of the fall of the Han, the desperate people looked for another sort of religion to explain why the Empire was going to hell, and the Buddhist dogma of suffering and nirvana made sense to many Chinese whose lives were marred by constant war. During that period, two out of every 3 Han Chinese died, from a population of 60 million to the height of the Han to 20 million when the Tang finally established a new dynasty.

Buddhism took a couple hundred years to become accepted, and likely it would take the same amount of time in China.

One other thing. With China's acceptance of a sinicized version of Islam, it also includes the concept of Jihad, of spreading the faith to every corner of the globe. Would this mean that instead of looking inward, China would have a much more agressive foreign policy because of the concept of Islamic Jihad, and with its massive resources and technology that at the time is far ahead of anything else in the world, what are the possibilities? Zheng He, a Chinese Muslim, got all the way to East Africa, and thus with Jihad what is stopping China from getting all the way to Europe and pimping them? Surely not the Portuguese or any European navy at the time.



I wonder what the pope's reaction would be, seeing Sinicized Islamic heathens on the doorstep of Europe?

As for the charismatic rebel, it would probably come at the end of the Sinicized Islamic Dynasty which comprised of barbarian foreigners (like how the Xianbei, the Mongols and Qing were foreign) and then he'd attract a following that he was somehow a descendant of the prophet.
 
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Angel Heart

Banned
I think keeping the Mongolian Empire alive for a bit longer might do the trick. This ATL Mongolian Empire would convert to Islam like OTL the Golden Horde, the Il-Khanate and Chagatai Khanate. The Yüan Dynasty was the only non Muslim successor state, so I think by keeping the Empire alive for a bit longer we may see the Yüan being Islamized.
 
I think keeping the Mongolian Empire alive for a bit longer might do the trick. This ATL Mongolian Empire would convert to Islam like OTL the Golden Horde, the Il-Khanate and Chagatai Khanate. The Yüan Dynasty was the only non Muslim successor state, so I think by keeping the Empire alive for a bit longer we may see the Yüan being Islamized.

It seems to me a bit to late, but then again when is a good time Islamize China? ;)

The more I think about the more I think that Islam could never become a majority religion, but might be interesting as a big sect, (somewhat akin to India).

Optimal scenario:

Convert Mongols and the emperor.
(A very thorough government missionary program started).
The Mongols fall due to unpopularity and in their place a dynasty similar to the Mings takes over. Of course the missionary program ceases and is frowned upon, but 3-4 % of population remain muslim or influenced by muslim thought.
This very chinese version of Islam gains a bit more popularity in some areas (like???)
but then get a huge boost when the Manchu´s invade. (One result of the Mongols converting was that the Manchu leaders also became interested and converted as well).
Once again the emperor is Muslim. He is wise and makes sure not to piss anyone off. However once again the state is used to promote the emperor´s belief in a peaceful way.

In the 17th century the official imperial Koran is published. It has been influcenced by many things, buddhism, confucianism in particular but also Taoism and even Jesuits.

By the beginning of 19th century Muhammed the prophet is a popular figure (almost a demigod in some places) and Allah has lost a lot of his personality and is often thought of in terms of Taoism. Stories of Muhammed borrow a lot from stories about Buddha, although he retains many things from the original prophet.

In the wake of many catastrophes China deals with (such as losing a war to a western power, perhaps not Britain due to butterfly effect), Islam once again makes history for China. Some nationalists consider it a foreign negative influence, while many sects pop up in southern China. (A religious awakening).

By the end of the 20th century 5% of the Chinese population are muslims that strictly adhere to the laws of the prophet, many more Chinese pay respects to the prophet but worship other things as well (25%).

Maybe not a very exciting TL, but it sounds like the optimal to me.
 
With an Islamic China, or a sinicized islam being established between the Tang and Sung Dynasties, I think it could very well butterfly away the Mongols entirely. Here's the reason why, the Islamic barbarians that invade China and then occupy it (in the 8th or 9th century) would mess up the tribes around them also, and affect their migration patterns. Therefore, the ancestors of the Mongols could move elsewhere in the steppes and thus the Mongols could very well remain a medium sized nomadic group that threatens China from time to time or even conquer it, but does not go on to conquer the rest of the world.
 
Could the Chinese argue that buddha was a prophet or at least inspired by god?

Also take it from the point of view of a confucian:

Confucians basically respect all wise men. Muhammed would be just another wise man who wrote a book the Quran that was perfect. I think one could still be a confucian and a muslim and probably a buddhist at the same time.

I don't know about the reincarnation thing.

Also the folk religion of China might be made an enemy of Islam calling it pagan. I think a similar situation would be the Muslims in india dealing with hinduism
 
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