Islamic Bulgaria?

Make the Volga Bulgars have a regular exudus from the Volga Basin to their brothers down on the black sea coast, instead of being absorbed by the Mongol Horde

Unfortunately, by that time the Volga Bulgars and the Bulgarians were completely different people who spoke different languages as (in TTL) follow different religions. Not that it wouldn't be cool, but "Re-Bulgaria" wouldn't look much like OTL Bulgaria. I guess it would be more like Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan.

Talking about it with my wife, I think the best bet for a Muslim Bulgaria would be a Muslim Greece. If the Ottoman policy about non-Muslims was much less enlightened than it was in OTL (say, like Spain's was), then they might have tried to convert their Christian hinterland more aggressively. If they were successful, we'd get a solid block of Muslims from the Bosporus to the Adriatic, including modern day Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, and maybe Serbia, and maybe Romania.

Of course, pursuing this stupid, expensive, and wasteful religious program would have severely weakened the Ottoman state. They probably wouldn't have spread as far or lasted as long as they did. The empire would have broken up sooner, and we probably wouldn't get a large Turkish-speaking state. Instead, the Balkans and Anatolia would be a mosaic of states, some with different religions, some with different languages, all with differently constructed ethnic self-identities and bitter rivalries with each other. Balkans Squared. Ura.
 
If the Ottoman policy about non-Muslims was much less enlightened than it was in OTL (say, like Spain's was), then they might have tried to convert their Christian hinterland more aggressively. If they were successful, we'd get a solid block of Muslims from the Bosporus to the Adriatic, including modern day Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, and maybe Serbia, and maybe Romania.

Instead, the Balkans and Anatolia would be a mosaic of states, some with different religions, some with different languages, all with differently constructed ethnic self-identities and bitter rivalries with each other. Balkans Squared. Ura.

Almost no way for such a policy to succeed long of term short of outright genocide. Likely to backfire horribly and, no, hardly leaving compact Muslim Balkans. It was very against the sort of policy the Ottomans followed for most of they history. Yes, there was the Armenian Genocide, but then, the Ottoman empire was driven by Turkish nationalism, not Islam, which theoretically opposes mass forced conversions as a policy (that would mean, as I said elsewhere in this board, that such a policy could easily meet with a "pious" Muslim opposition from religious scholars).
The Balkans could have had a larger rate of conversion, IMHO, with peaceful means, if different Ottoman policies were enacted. Especially if they had no vested interest in keeping the people Christian as a wider fiscal base. This is difficult, but maybe a Sultan chooses to abolish the poll tax in an effort to win the loyalty of his new subjects and somehow manages to make it stick (Muslims would likely oppose this, though).
At this point, conversion will be officially encouraged but NOT normally forced.
Oh, of course, forced conversion was not completely alien to the Ottomans either.
 
Almost no way for such a policy to succeed long of term short of outright genocide. Likely to backfire horribly and, no, hardly leaving compact Muslim Balkans. It was very against the sort of policy the Ottomans followed for most of they history. Yes, there was the Armenian Genocide, but then, the Ottoman empire was driven by Turkish nationalism, not Islam, which theoretically opposes mass forced conversions as a policy (that would mean, as I said elsewhere in this board, that such a policy could easily meet with a "pious" Muslim opposition from religious scholars).
The Balkans could have had a larger rate of conversion, IMHO, with peaceful means, if different Ottoman policies were enacted. Especially if they had no vested interest in keeping the people Christian as a wider fiscal base. This is difficult, but maybe a Sultan chooses to abolish the poll tax in an effort to win the loyalty of his new subjects and somehow manages to make it stick (Muslims would likely oppose this, though).
At this point, conversion will be officially encouraged but NOT normally forced.
Oh, of course, forced conversion was not completely alien to the Ottomans either.
The thing is that the poll tax was a significant impetus towards conversion on its own, so I don't see how removing it would help conversion.
And how exactly did the Ottomans "discourage" conversions in OTL anyway? It's not as if anyone who wanted to convert wasn't accepted.
 
The thing is that the poll tax was a significant impetus towards conversion on its own, so I don't see how removing it would help conversion.
And how exactly did the Ottomans "discourage" conversions in OTL anyway? It's not as if anyone who wanted to convert wasn't accepted.

They basically left Christians alone as long as they paid taxes.
Removing the tax would likely mean:
a) a larger meddling of the state in the Balkans
b) an incentive to state-sponsored "missionary" activity (the word isn't the best one, i know)
c) an incentive to convert, at the communal level, as a way to ascend the social ladder. OTL, in the time the devshirme worked, converting was actually a way to LOSE opportunities for social raise, to the point that some Bosniak communites sometimes asked to be still subject to devshirme after conversion (sorry, I cannot find the source for this).
 
They basically left Christians alone as long as they paid taxes.
Removing the tax would likely mean:
a) a larger meddling of the state in the Balkans
b) an incentive to state-sponsored "missionary" activity (the word isn't the best one, i know)
c) an incentive to convert, at the communal level, as a way to ascend the social ladder. OTL, in the time the devshirme worked, converting was actually a way to LOSE opportunities for social raise, to the point that some Bosniak communites sometimes asked to be still subject to devshirme after conversion (sorry, I cannot find the source for this).

Oh, that's a good way to make this timeline work. When and why would they remove the tax?
 
Oh, that's a good way to make this timeline work. When and why would they remove the tax?

That's the though part. There would little in the way of obvious reasons to do so except winning the favor ot the Christians. OTOH, many Muslims would quite vocal against it.
 
That's the though part. There would little in the way of obvious reasons to do so except winning the favor ot the Christians. OTOH, many Muslims would quite vocal against it.

Scenario: SHISHMAN EMPIRE ( as a big fat butterfly blowing away the Ottoman from OTL )

1378 - Bulgaria under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Shishman_of_Bulgaria adopts Islam. Only the elite. One "Bulgarian Islam" the same way the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism was shaped as reaction to the compulsory introduction of the Byzantine-centric Christianity. "Bulgarian Islam" without Arabic names, on Cyrilic script, and literaly translation of Quran. Sifu style. Direct continuation of , say, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mevlevi_Order - analogue of the processes which shaped the Iran-centric Islam = slavic-bulgarian centered islamic Mainstream. Add as a spice some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bektashi_Order elements evolve in this denomination ( making it more militarized - like the link bektashi-janissaries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary , thus the Order is the backbone of the state, the Ruling dynasty of Shishmanides, major ethno-converter -- accepting as members of this Royal Order only children, raised as soldiers and considered Childredn of the Tsar ). Gradually during the centuries the "mass-culture" implications of the Shishmanid Order policies evolves into something very alike of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai consuming and digesting most of the adherents of the Abrahamic ( and not only ) religions, and thus extinguishing the differences, officially regarding the plentiful and various Jewish, Christian, Muslim and other cults as mere practicing nuances of Unified religion. Imagine it as FORCED tolerance, and official strict denial and punishment of any notion of difference!

PoD -- one very different Ivan Shishman - infinitely more cunning, ruthless, cruel and brutal, received a "vision" that this is the only way to save the Bulgarian Kingdom. In 1378 he becomes officially part of the House of Ottoman as brother-in-law ( ref.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kera_Tamara ). Appointed to rule all the Balkan possessions of the Ottomans safe of Eastern Thrace ( where in Adrianople the contemporary Ottoman capital is ).

Very active "BG islam" literature and missionary centers are reopenned and mass producing texts ( like OTL Ohrid and Preslav literaly schools in 9th century ). Thus islam becomes more homey and acceptable for the vast Slavic populations in Eastern Europe.

Secretly Ivan Shishman befriends with Tamerlane, to a degree in 1405 to succeed him on the throne of the Timurid Empire.

In 1389 Ivan Shishman and Tamerlane together take over the Golden Horde and Shishman becomes Tsar ( Emperor ) of the Golden Horde, too. The powerbase of Shishman there are the Volga Bulgarians.

Shisham wins the Ottoman Civil War and heads/supercedes/replaces the Ottomans too in 1402. ( In the period 1387-1402 the Ottoman and many other Anatolian turk states are totally and physically annihilated ).

In 1404 Tamerlane instead of China attacks together with Shishman ( with his vast Balkan, Eastern Europe, Anatolian human resources ) Constantinople and takes it over. Constantinople ( Tsarigrad ) becomes the capital of the Shishman Empire.

The next Shishmanid Tsar is Joseph ( IOTL the Ivan's bastard son, who in our timeline is the Ecumenical Patriarch Joseph II ).

In the next 500 years the Shishman Empire evolves territorially as the Ottoman, Russian, Moghul OTL empires taken together, possessing virtually unlimited human resources for steady "bulgarization" from the expanses of Eastern Europe.

;)
 
Scenario: SHISHMAN EMPIRE ( as a big fat butterfly blowing away the Ottoman from OTL )

;)

Ooh. I LIKE it.
You got a little silly there towards the end, but I like the idea of a Bulgarian Tsar adopting the religion of the big southern neighbors in order to retain independence. After all, it happened once before with Christianity, and Shishman's wife converted from Judaism, which might have given him ideas.

To make it more realistic, though, let's have Tsar Shishman take a page from the book of Knyaz Boris and play the Muslims off against each other. Shishman asks for help from the Mamluks and from Timur, and maybe from the Golden Horde.

However, the best option I see for Bulgaria here would be an independent state more or less the size of modern Bulgaria. I'm sorry, but I don't see Bulgaria absorbing the Golden Horde or the Timurid Empire. Rather the reverse.

Now, a Timurid or Mongol Bulgaria might be cool, but it probably wouldn't be all that different from Ottoman Bulgaria.
 
I'm sorry, but I don't see Bulgaria absorbing the Golden Horde or the Timurid Empire. Rather the reverse.

Why not? Ottoman started very tiny. Bulgaria has millions of people to start with and dozens of millions to work with. I think expansion configuration space is enormous...
 
Why not? Ottoman started very tiny.

Osman was a military genius, commanding a population of battle-hardened horse-nomads (the Oguz and other refugees pushed out of Asia by the Mongols) and religious zealots (the ghazis), with strong allies (the Seljuks) fighting a weak foe (the Byzantines), from a great strategic stonghold (Anatolia), with a high-tech superweapon (gunpowder).

Shishman didn't have any of those advantages.

A good POD might actually Ivan Shishman marrying his sister (Kera Temara) to Sultan Murad immediately (rather than waiting seven years), and convincing her to convert to Islam. On that basis, he converts the Turnovan aristocracy to Islam. With his wife Sara-Theodora, he lays the foundation of a synthetic, Abrahamic religion that wins him the respect he needs from the encroaching Muslim powers.

By the time Shishman dies, he leaves the strong, stable Sultanate of Turnovo (Търновскиът Султанлъю).

How does that sound?
 
Another way would be for the Ottomans to have another major source income, besides the Jizya. Then they can rely less on the Christians taxes and sponsor Sufi Missionaries and the such.
 
They basically left Christians alone as long as they paid taxes.
In any interactions between Christians and Muslims, the later were favored and this hardly seems to fit the definition of being left alone

a) a larger meddling of the state in the Balkans
I don't see what you mean here.

b) an incentive to state-sponsored "missionary" activity (the word isn't the best one, i know)
There was always some local missionary activity and I'm not aware of efforts being made to prohibit it.
The fact that criminals were often pardoned if they converted to Islam seems to contradict the idea that the Ottoman administration was particularly averse to conversions.

c) an incentive to convert, at the communal level, as a way to ascend the social ladder. OTL, in the time the devshirme worked, converting was actually a way to LOSE opportunities for social raise, to the point that some Bosniak communites sometimes asked to be still subject to devshirme after conversion (sorry, I cannot find the source for this).
You mean the same Blood tax (that's what it was called among the people it was applied) that parents sometimes injured their children to avoid? In fact there Christians converted to Islam to avoid the Devshirme.
 
Oh, that's a good way to make this timeline work. When and why would they remove the tax?
Again, I can't see the logic of how removing a discriminatory tax (avoided by conversion) would make conversion more popular. Well, apart from the idea that many Christians wanted their children to be kidnapped and brainwashed into the religion of their oppressors.
 
Osman was a military genius,

??? head-sheppard of the Karamanli.
Also, the PoD is the Ivan Shishman personality: Imagine such Shishman as a hybrid / alloy between Vlad Dracula, Georgios Castrioti ( Skenderbeg ), Napoleon ... Maniacally driven mad mind.

commanding a population of battle-hardened horse-nomads (the Oguz and other refugees pushed out of Asia by the Mongols)

Shishmanids - commanding and adopting the Crimmean Tatars AND the Cossacks + the super-hardened populations of the European steppe as inexorable source of people / fresh blood. Literally millions of people from Eastern Europe in one much voluntary way could be Shishmanized / Bulgarianized only via the system - 14-15 yrs old join the army, and resign as a settler-veteran with several square miles of manor and many local wifes...

and religious zealots (the ghazis),

it is easy to breed armies of fanatics using children. It takes 1-2 decades.


with strong allies (the Seljuks)

ex-Golden horde ( or rather it's territory's Slavic and Urgic populations ), ex-Timuride empire...

fighting a weak foe (the Byzantines),

Shishmanides - also weak foes - Hungary, Byzantines, Anatolian turkic states.

from a great strategic stonghold (Anatolia),

Balkans are better. See the trend - Byzantine / ERE loses the Balkans and dies. Ottomans win the Balkans and THEN they become and empire. Anatolia is just an isolated highland / defensive fortress without the real stronghold the Balkans, without Balkans no one having Anatolia can't build empire. Ottoman empire died after loosing the Balkans, too.

with a high-tech superweapon (gunpowder).

Easy. Unavoidable to get in fact.

Shishman didn't have any of those advantages.

He had most of these and in place of the rest even better ones.
 
Imagine such Shishman as a hybrid / alloy between Vlad Dracula, Georgios Castrioti ( Skenderbeg ), Napoleon ... Maniacally driven mad mind.
That would be cool.


Shishmanids - commanding and adopting the Crimmean Tatars AND the Cossacks + the super-hardened populations of the European steppe as inexorable source of people / fresh blood. Literally millions of people from Eastern Europe in one much voluntary way could be Shishmanized / Bulgarianized only via the system - 14-15 yrs old join the army, and resign as a settler-veteran with several square miles of manor and many local wifes...
Hm. That would also be cool. But we'd need to figure out why nobody did that in OTL, and explain why it was possible ITTL.

Ottoman empire died after loosing the Balkans, too.
Huh. I hadn't thought of it that way. In Bulgaria we usually say "Rome, then Byzantium, then the Ottomans, then the Nazis, then the Communists. Look out, EU." :)
But anyway, I think it's reasonable that any power based on the Bosporus, will want to expand into the Balkans as well as Anatolia. But that doesn't mean a power based on the Balkans has an advantage when it comes to conquering Anatolia. The only example of THAT that comes to mind is Alexander the Great.



Easy. Unavoidable to get in fact.



He had most of these and in place of the rest even better ones.[/QUOTE]
 
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