Islam without Christianity?

Would it be possible for Islam, in some form, exist if Christianity died with Jesus? (assuming Jesus existed)
 

NomadicSky

Banned
Depends on who you ask.


Some would say yes as they believe that no matter what the angel Gabriel would come and give Mohammed the quran with or without the Christians.

I myself believe it wouldn't exist.
 
There was a fair amount of Christian influence. Then there are butterflies to worry about. Mohammad would likely not exist.
 
Would it be possible for Islam, in some form, exist if Christianity died with Jesus? (assuming Jesus existed)

I think it's more or less impossible. First of all, Christianity emerged 600 years before Islam, so if there was no Christianity, the butterflies would be enormous.

There could very well be some huge irruption out of Arabia at this time still however - a lot of this was brought on by the global catastrophe that led to famine and plague destroying the classical order and overthrowing the civilization in Yemen - but it doesn't seem likely anything like Islam would come out of this. What we would see would depend largely on what's going on in the Roman and Persian worlds, i.e. monotheism vs paganism, etc.
 
Would it be possible for Islam, in some form, exist if Christianity died with Jesus? (assuming Jesus existed)

Not really, Islam is founded on the premise that it is a continuation of the Abrahamic 'path'. Not everyone would agree that this premise is correct but that is by the by!

Detractors of Islam, claim that it is essentially a Moon Cult that hijacked Judeao-Christianity. I don't accept that because when Mohammed consecrated mecca he smashed the idol of every pagan God, including Hubal the moon God. But you could argue that it did steal many of the cultural practices of moon worship.

Do you view Mohammed as a genuine prophet or just a historical figure?

You could have as simply a Jewish prophet, which is arguably what he was in real life anyway (despite not really being Jesus), so the in a sense nothing has changed.
2: Muhammad starts Islam as a henotheistic moon cult.
3: Mohammed starts Islam as a polytheistic cult... no don't buy that one.
4: Mohammed corrupts Zorastrianism?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
But you could argue that it did steal many of the cultural practices of moon worship.
Not really; the pagan Arabian contribution to Islam is relatively minor. The practice of setting one's calendar by the Moon is fairly universal (and still followed to this day by the Jews), as are pilgrimages and ritual circumambulations such as those performed during Hajj around the Kaaba (at least, these things are common in the ancient Near East).

You can't really "steal" a practice anyway because that would imply that you had taken it from someone, depriving them of it in the process. If you had said that it ad(a/o)pted ritual or cultural practices from Zoroastrianism (five daily prayers), or Near Eastern Christianity (prayer niches, prostration, etc.), or Judaism (circumcision, codified oral law a la Talmud), I would agree whole-heartedly, but there's not much in Islam that's recognizably pagan.
 
Not really; the pagan Arabian contribution to Islam is relatively minor. The practice of setting one's calendar by the Moon is fairly universal (and still followed to this day by the Jews), as are pilgrimages and ritual circumambulations such as those performed during Hajj around the Kaaba (at least, these things are common in the ancient Near East).

You can't really "steal" a practice anyway because that would imply that you had taken it from someone, depriving them of it in the process. If you had said that it ad(a/o)pted ritual or cultural practices from Zoroastrianism (five daily prayers), or Near Eastern Christianity (prayer niches, prostration, etc.), or Judaism (circumcision, codified oral law a la Talmud), I would agree whole-heartedly, but there's not much in Islam that's recognizably pagan.

Well thats me told!
But yea a lot is made of the Islam-Moon cult thing, admittedly mostly by fundementalist christians so its to be taken with a pinch of salt!
 
Probably but without one of Islam's major prophets. Moslems believe that the people wouldn't listen to Jesus so Mohammed was sent, however they also believe that Jesus did not die of the cross. It also depends on what you mean by Christianity as it is arguable that Christianity arose after the death of Jesus as it was St Paul and the Emperor Constantine that deified Jesus. If it died it may well have died between St Paul and Constantine through suppresion by the Roman Empire but not at the time of the death of Jesus. Suppose the teaching of Jesus survived without the foundation of the a religion that deified him? Islam would well have arisen as it has a heritage that goes back before Jesus in the Jewish prophets and it came to prominence in a civil war that would almost certainly have taken place
 
I believe that Christianity was one of the major causes of the fall of the Roman Empire so I think that without Christianity, possibly, a hypothetical more powerful Eastern Roman Empire (Roma still think that would be divided), would get control over all Arabia and with that, over an hipotetical Islam (without all Christian influence) reducing its size and capacity of expansion.
Further, one of the great strengths of Islam to expand it was made based on Christian conversions, so if an Eastern Roman Empire or even a Persian empire woldn´t get control over Arabia, the Islam expansion would be at least slowly
 
I believe that Christianity was one of the major causes of the fall of the Roman Empire so I think that without Christianity, possibly, a hypothetical more powerful Eastern Roman Empire (Roma still think that would be divided), would get control over all Arabia and with that, over an hipotetical Islam (without all Christian influence) reducing its size and capacity of expansion.
Further, one of the great strengths of Islam to expand it was made based on Christian conversions, so if an Eastern Roman Empire or even a Persian empire woldn´t get control over Arabia, the Islam expansion would be at least slowly
I don't think that christianity caused the fall of the roman empire but it gained much from its fall.

But back to the topic: Without Christianity now Islam. It the same as without jews no christianity.
 
I think that no Christianity would butterfly away Islam as well. Bear in mind that Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam (second only to Muhammad), and interaction with Christians played a role in the formation of Islam. I'm pretty sure that this would butterfly away Islam altogether. And even if there was something like it in an ATL despite the butterflies, it'd be radically different.
 
I believe that Christianity was one of the major causes of the fall of the Roman Empire so I think that without Christianity, possibly, a hypothetical more powerful Eastern Roman Empire (Roma still think that would be divided), would get control over all Arabia and with that, over an hipotetical Islam (without all Christian influence) reducing its size and capacity of expansion.
Further, one of the great strengths of Islam to expand it was made based on Christian conversions, so if an Eastern Roman Empire or even a Persian empire woldn´t get control over Arabia, the Islam expansion would be at least slowly

Islam as a religion expanded behind the Arab armies in the beginning, not before them, and outside of Arabia the conversion to Islam was a slow process which took place over generations. In fact, the Monophysite and Nestorian Christians welcomed the Arabs because they would allow them to worship Christ as they saw fit. The Arabs were able to storm out of Arabia because the Byzantines and the Persians had just spend the last two generations in constant warfare and were both spent forces by the 630s. The battle between Rome and Persia had been going on for 700 years by this point, so no Chrisitianity probably doesn't butterfly this away.

I think it is in fact (slightly, perhaps :)) possible that Islam could arise even if Christianity doesn't become a major religion. If the POD is after Jesus' crucifixion, then I don't see how every single follower of his message could be stamped out. Arabia is just the kind of place where you would get small communities of remnant Christians escaping Roman persecution and Jewish ostracizing.
 
I don't think that christianity caused the fall of the roman empire but it gained much from its fall.

But back to the topic: Without Christianity now Islam. It the same as without jews no christianity.


On the other hand, Christianity gained a lot by the survival of the Roman Empire for another 300 plus years after the crucifixion of Christ. Without the empire the faith could not have spread throughout the mediterranean world nearly as fast as it did. The establishment of Christianity as the state religion of the empire ensured its survival and magnified its influence. Without Rome, Chisitianity would probably have died off as a heretical sect of Judaism in a few generations.

Regarding the topic, Chistianity (and Judaism) were critical to Islam regardless of whether or not you look at if from the secular historical perspective, or from the faith. The Secularist would argue that Mohammad got a lot of his ideas from Christians and Jews. The faithful would point out that Jesus was a major prophet of Islam - and the last before the Seal of the Prophets.
 
Would it be possible for Islam, in some form, exist if Christianity died with Jesus? (assuming Jesus existed)

That's a pretty wide net you've cast, there. It really depends on what you want to define "some form" as. A religion with its origins in Arabia is certainly possible. You could probably even get some form of monotheism going, albeit with closer parallels to Zoroastrianism than OTL Islam. Certain demographic factors would remain, even with the significant ripples the absence of Christianity had on the Mediterranean world.

But a religion centered around a prophet name Muhammad who received divine revelation from the angel Jibril and saw itself as the ultimate successor to Judaism? The chances of that happening are too slight to be seriously worth discussion, honestly. Even the direct lines between Christianity and Islam weren't so important, six centuries of butterflies would be more than enough to scupper Islam-as-we-know-it.

For what it's worth, I tend to think that we can fairly safely assume that Jesus (or, more accurately, Joshua, or, even more accurately, Yeshua) existed. He's better attested, even in secular (if almost wholly posthumous) sources, than most figures from the time. You can certainly question precisely what he said, did, or believed, but as a historical figure he almost certainly existed, IMO.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Arguably Rabbinic Judaism would not exist if it were not for Christianity -- or, if it did, it would be one of several possible schools of thought within Judaism (apart from relics like the Karaites and the Samaritans, of course).
 
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