Islam in Venice?

carib · Sep 23, 2004

Hi, I'm new.Lets have a couple of proIslam threads here.dislike for Islam tends to be pervasive on these Mbs ( I'm not a dovotee of it myself) but just about everyone handwaves it into obliviion or irrrelevancy at the first opportunity. Here are couple scenarios:

1.Islam moves north

In the 7th or 8th centuries Islam defeats Byzantium and expands North, to Budapest in the West and as far as Kiev.They are better able to resist the Mongols who drive West, deep into Europe. Poland and eastern & central Germany groan under the Tatar yoke for 300 years.

2.Islam goes the other way.

In the West, Islam doesn't stop at Spain but takes southern France & Italy too. The pope moves to northern France and ends up as a puppet of the French crown. There are no crusades and no Reconquista. the Renessaince happens, but in an Islamic Italy. Leonardo al-Haq

focusses not on painting, but on scientific inventions.

3.The sick man revives

Smarting from her losses in the late 19th century, the Ottoman Empire reform movement succeeds. The Young Turks push through a crash modernization programme and in thirty years industrialise, a L.A. the Mieji Restoration. They get considerable help from first Britain, then Germany.
Thety lose some ground in the Balkan Wars, but do much better in the WW1 and hold on to the Middle East and in the Caucasus.
After WWI, they beat off the Greeks and still massacre the Armenians, but Ataturk and others continue to push modernization, and the Ottoman Empire industrialises and becomes a constituitional monarchy, with a moderate form of Islam. Oil is found in due course , and the Ottoman Empire becomes a rich, industrialised country which gains EEC membership in the late 20th century.

LordKalvan · Sep 23, 2004

carib said:
Hi, I'm new.Lets have a couple of proIslam threads here.dislike for Islam tends to be pervasive on these Mbs ( I'm not a dovotee of it myself) but just about everyone handwaves it into obliviion or irrrelevancy at the first opportunity. Here are couple scenarios:

2.Islam goes the other way.

In the West, Islam doesn't stop at Spain but takes southern France & Italy too. The pope moves to northern France and ends up as a puppet of the French crown. There are no crusades and no Reconquista. the Renessaince happens, but in an Islamic Italy. Leonardo al-Haq focusses not on painting, but on scientific inventions.

In such a case, they will not stop, and wrap-up all of Europe. There is no way that the franks can stop the tide, and the others are even in worse shape. The Viking will become Moslems, and go raiding in the Far East

carib said:
3.The sick man revives

Smarting from her losses in the late 19th century, the Ottoman Empire reform movement succeeds. The Young Turks push through a crash modernization programme and in thirty years industrialise, a L.A. the Mieji Restoration. They get considerable help from first Britain, then Germany.
Thety lose some ground in the Balkan Wars, but do much better in the WW1 and hold on to the Middle East and in the Caucasus.
After WWI, they beat off the Greeks and still massacre the Armenians, but Ataturk and others continue to push modernization, and the Ottoman Empire industrialises and becomes a constituitional monarchy, with a moderate form of Islam. Oil is found in due course , and the Ottoman Empire becomes a rich, industrialised country which gains EEC membership in the late 20th century.

That's a real possibility. However, if they manage to do better in WW1, there will likely be no massacre of Armenians, and positively no Greek war.
I have some long-standing doubts about the possibility for the Ottoman Empire to survive; OTOH, if they manage to ride the WW1 bump they might have some real chances. In this case however they will be never a participant in the UE

: the Ottoman Empire would be the ruler of all the Middle east, with in excess of 50% of the world oil reserves, and would be a major palayer in its own right

MerryPrankster · Sep 23, 2004

It's not that we dislike Islam, it's just that:

1) Someone did a thread where the Turks did not migrate, and during the discussion, I (I think it was me) had the idea that if the Abbasid Caliphate was truly moribund w/out the Turks to revitalize it, that Islam would lose territory and people.

2) This inspired Straha (I think) to write an "Islam dies out thread."

3) Meanwhile, I developed the Turks-not-migrating-decline-of-Islam concept into "The Great North African Crusade TL."

This is probably a one-time thing.

Abdul Hadi Pasha · Sep 25, 2004

carib said:
3.The sick man revives

Smarting from her losses in the late 19th century, the Ottoman Empire reform movement succeeds. The Young Turks push through a crash modernization programme and in thirty years industrialise, a L.A. the Mieji Restoration. They get considerable help from first Britain, then Germany.
Thety lose some ground in the Balkan Wars, but do much better in the WW1 and hold on to the Middle East and in the Caucasus.
After WWI, they beat off the Greeks and still massacre the Armenians, but Ataturk and others continue to push modernization, and the Ottoman Empire industrialises and becomes a constituitional monarchy, with a moderate form of Islam. Oil is found in due course , and the Ottoman Empire becomes a rich, industrialised country which gains EEC membership in the late 20th century.

Obviously my favorite, but there WAS a "crash modernization program" - it was called the Tanzimat and paralleled the Meiji Restoration, but a bit earlier. Later, the Hamidian regime accellerated modernization using autocratic means. A stronger Ottoman Empire would likely result in totally different wars , though, so it doesn't make sense to discuss how the Balkan Wars or WWI would have gone. I think the Young Turk era was too late to make this much difference, and their nationalist ideology would have made holding the empire together very difficult.

It is a common misconception that the Ottoman Empire was just sitting around decaying until Ataturk showed up - he did nothing but continue Ottoman reforms in a Republican form, and frankly threw the baby out with the bathwater with regard to his anti-religion stance.

However, just staying out of WWI, or joining it a year later would have made an enormous difference, and could have resulted in an Ottoman Empire that had huge oil reserves.

Straha · Sep 25, 2004

the islam dies out thread wasn't by me.

MerryPrankster · Sep 25, 2004

Straha,

Oops. Sorry.

IIRC you were involved in it or "Turks Never Migrate" to a good degree, though.

Alayta · Sep 26, 2004

tricked by title

I expected something like venice becomes part of islam in th 13 century. Caused be something like a backtide of the crisades. As venice was always a place for bad deseases, they might get fond of superior muslim hygenic at that time and in the following find islam more and more attracive.
So, venice is a small islamic exclave in Europe. A very rich one BTW.

Grey Wolf · Sep 26, 2004

Alayta said:
I expected something like venice becomes part of islam in th 13 century. Caused be something like a backtide of the crisades. As venice was always a place for bad deseases, they might get fond of superior muslim hygenic at that time and in the following find islam more and more attracive.
So, venice is a small islamic exclave in Europe. A very rich one BTW.

Yes, I was too. I as already to post about marauding Ottoman armies in the fifteenth century and how they raided Carniola and even into NE Italy so that the fires from their depradations could be seen from Venice

Then I found out that wasn't what the thread was about

Grey Wolf