Islam implodes

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Posting this as news on the front page of their website was amusing though


Khomeini's Religious Teachings on sex with Animals
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation (August 17th, 2004)
"The meat of horses, mules, or donkeys is not recommended. It is strictly forbidden if the animal was sodomized while alive by a man. In that case, the animal must be taken outside the city and sold.""If one commits an act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrements become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed as quickly as possible and burned, and the price of it paid to its owner by him who sodomized it.""It is forbidden to consume the excrement of animals or their nasal secretions. But if such are mixed in minute proportions into other foods their consumption is not forbidden.""If a man __ God protect him from it! _ fornicates with an animal and ejaculates, ablution is necessary."


Grey Wolf
 

Redbeard

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
Hmmmm, I don't think I had better comment on this right-wing Christian wet dream

Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf, could you please spare us of all this labeling things you haven't got a better argument against as "right wing this and that". Apart from political right and left being so much 20th century, and so irrelevant here in the 21st, are you really capable making the destinction between left and right? I sometimes have my doubts.

Anyway I think Islam is imploding just before our eyes right now. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but practically all terrorists nowadays are Muslims, and use a religious cover, and that of course puts tremendous pressure on everybody calling themselves Muslims. Especially as you will not need excessive self-recognition to see how deep the roots of extremism can be found in "vanilla" Islam.

Combine that with the impossibility of implementing medieval patriarcial rules in a modern society, and the long row of humiliating defeats of Muslim causes, and the present terrorism and extremism are the obvious death cramps of a dying religion/culture. I'm sure there will be Muslims for centuries yet, but if to be a vital part of the future, they need a major "reform" just like other religions did it.

But if it can comfort Grey Wolf, the Muslim Phoenix rising from the ashes will probably not be something comforting Christian family values, but rather a religion allowing young people, and especially young women, to throw off the yoke of the patriarcs, and living their own lives - i.e. education, jobs, free sex, fun and no kids (and husbands) for now.

That might still leave countless millions in the 3rd world in the same missery, but the values of modern Muslims in the west will eventually spread and make it possible to build modern societies - even in Arabia.

Until then I will not hesitate to use straigth jackets etc. to keep the cramps from inflicting more damage than necessary.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Some sort of great shake-up in Islam is likely, esp. if it grows more in Europe, as I expect it will. Some "European" values will creep in, despite anti-assimilation tendencies in many European Islamic communities.
 
Well, it hasn't worked with Christianity. I doubt it. But as to modernising Islam - why do you think the traditionalist radicals are so panicky?

BTW, I think the ruling on sodomy is pretty cogent and fairly humane. Reads weird, of course, but any legal system that purports to deal in moral transgressions needs to skate that ice. Or would you rather we hanged and burned both parties publicly?
 

Valamyr

Banned
I agree with Grey Wolf on this one. No wrong in pointing out that this website is religious right-wing material, and entirely not objective.

Time will tell.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
Sorry, Mr Redbeard but I will NOT stop labelling things correctly just because you or anyone else wants me to.

The type of shit at that website is EXACTLY the sort of right wing shit that can be seen at places like this :-
http://p216.ezboard.com/fwarships1discussionboardsfrm18

Grey Wolf

You see, my point is, that in a pluralistic democratic society it simply isn't enough to just label something and thereby discredit it, you got to put up some convincing argumentation. That goes especially for all the really repulsive issues.

In that context my complaint about you is on two levels:

One is that you don't give you contribution to really fighting what is repulsive and the other is that you create shivering traces of systems where labeling something left/right is enough to start the worst attrocities - and left hasn't been any better than right.

I can't 100% blame anybody for sometimes preferring to ignore certain things, I used to post a lot on warships1, but stopped years ago as most others came there to elevate their own nations battleships into divinity, so what should I do there as a Dane, but I will blame you for outrepulsing the repulsive - that is as in vain as fucking for virginity, but not nearly as much fun.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
First of all, Islam is clearly not imploding, we're talking about the world's fastest growing major religion, with over a billion adherents and which has already lastexd for almost one and one half millenia. Far from producing a long list of failures it has recently (within the last generation) triumphed in afghanistan, kosovo and bosnia and in many parts of the world (Turkey and Malaysia, for instance) is adapting quite successfully to modern conditions. Certainly the religion as a whole has not yet done so, but this does not seem to have actually reduced its vitality by the all-important measure of numbers and fervour of believers.

and secondly, anyone who looks at faithfreedom.org and reacts with "my, what an informative and unbiased source of useful information on Islam" has quite simply taken leave of their senses.
 
There was a partial local implosion in or near (what is now) Pakistan in the 19th century. In Qadian in Punjab, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad started preaching and said that he was a new prophet after Muhammad. His followers did not desert Islam completely, but started a new very heretical sect called Ahmadi. His grandson (who was his 4th successor) died in April 2003. There are now 20 million Ahmadis.

Also, at the arising of Sikhism, some of the new Sikhs were converts from Islam.

Thewre were earlier partial mass desertions to found heretical sects of Islam: the Druzes and the Yezidees and the Alawites.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Matthew Craw said:
First of all, Islam is clearly not imploding, we're talking about the world's fastest growing major religion.

I have to agree with Matthew Craw. Islam is far from imploding, it is increasing in both number of worshipers and worldwide influence. And frankly, the idea that "anti-islamic information coming in over the public media" could be a factor in its hypothetical demise seems unrealistic at best. Has criticism of conservative Christianity by the public media done anything but inflame conservative Christians even more? Plus we seem to be talking here about a US-based right-wing website, meaning it has about as much impact on Muslims as would a Saudi-based Islamic website on Christians, i.e. none at all.
It's high time we threw in the bin our copies of Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" (what I privately like to refer to as "Huntington's Disease") and instead picked up Benjamin Barber's "Jihad versus McWorld" in the dusty corner where we left it. If a clash is taking place, it is between a de facto coalition of religious extremists (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) and the rest of us.
 
Anthony Appleyard said:
There was a partial local implosion in or near (what is now) Pakistan in the 19th century. In Qadian in Punjab, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad started preaching and said that he was a new prophet after Muhammad. His followers did not desert Islam completely, but started a new very heretical sect called Ahmadi. His grandson (who was his 4th successor) died in April 2003. There are now 20 million Ahmadis.

Who are to all intents and purposes Muslims.

The formation of heresies is not usually a sign of weakness in a religion. Otherwise, the 16th century would have to have been a very bad time for Christianity (and let's not even talk of the awful implosion of Christianity in the United States after 1820, when new heretical sects popped up everywhere...)

If you are looking to a good candidate for a religious 'implosion' (which I, incidentally, would consider a very good idea), look to Dubai, or Qatar, or for that matter Frankfurt (Main) and London. That kind of thing needs encouraging, BTW.
 
Hendryk said:
I have to agree with Matthew Craw. Islam is far from imploding, it is increasing in both number of worshipers and worldwide influence. And frankly, the idea that "anti-islamic information coming in over the public media" could be a factor in its hypothetical demise seems unrealistic at best. Has criticism of conservative Christianity by the public media done anything but inflame conservative Christians even more? Plus we seem to be talking here about a US-based right-wing website, meaning it has about as much impact on Muslims as would a Saudi-based Islamic website on Christians, i.e. none at all.
It's high time we threw in the bin our copies of Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" (what I privately like to refer to as "Huntington's Disease") and instead picked up Benjamin Barber's "Jihad versus McWorld" in the dusty corner where we left it. If a clash is taking place, it is between a de facto coalition of religious extremists (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) and the rest of us.


A very perceptive post, although I disagree with the the apparent take the poster has on things. And I am not sure the permissive and hedonistic west is necessarily on the right site. The rise of extremism and fundamentalism among certain segments of Chrsitainity, Judaism, and Islam is a very understandible (if not always justifiable) reaction of those who see their values and basic belief systems being ridiculed, discounted, and even oppressed by modern secular society. In true Hegelian manner, I sincerely hope (or pray - but then I too would be discounted as "one of them" by many posters on this board) a synthesis develops (particularly in the west) which restores religious values and spirituality to their proper roles in the underpinings of moral society - while providing for diversity. That would do more to end the culture conflict than banning headscarfs and detaining extremist moslems without trial.
 
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