Islam dies out

[MerryPrankster]

Leo,

Do you remember that article I sent you awhile back by the ex-Muslim who claimed Mohammed was really a Christian? Some sort of schismatic group of Muslims who essentially become Christians (like the Yezidi, who essentially became pagans) might adopt such a belief and be accepted (reluctantly) by the Roman religious establishment.

 

[Peter]

Major religions have died out before such as the Pagan Roman religion.

Yes but that was a pagan religion much less advanced then Islam, and they didn't have the habit of converting other people.

 

[Brilliantlight]

Yes but that was a pagan religion much less advanced then Islam, and they didn't have the habit of converting other people.

I doubt the Romans saw it that way.

 

[Brilliantlight]

I think the Pagans largely adapted and became superficially "Christianized." My grandparents practiced a religion which had only a nodding acquaintance with Rome.

The idea of the Muslims taking a step back and become Christians is unlikely for that reason. Perhaps if they were given the opportunity to adapt to a Christianized Islam (whatever that would look like) accepting the fealty of the Pope but keeping Muhammad as the Seal of the Prophets, they might - but that wouldn't be Christianity in the traditional sense, nor would they have "died out." Even then, scripture-based religions have shown remarkable resilience to dying out.

Zoasterism was the major religion in the Persian Empire and was a monotheistic, scripture based religion and has so few adherents today that relitively few people have heard of it.

 

[LordKalvan]

Possibly, the best comparison would be with the Goths conquest of Italy and Spain: an Arian people (to all practical effects almost nomadic) lording over a Catholic people, of higher culture and different race. Even if there were difficulties at the beginning, the Goths rule was never in discussion. The same would be with a Nestorian Mongolic horde. I hope no one is going to mention guerrilla, btw

 

[htgriffin]

Inspired by "What if the Turks don't migrate", what if the Turks don't convert to Islam and stay Buddist or something? The Christians convert most of the Moslems in the west back to Christianity and the east goes back to Buddism in the 11th and 12th centuries. Islam turns into a small, ignored cult in the 13th century. What happens?

I have to agree that the 13th century is a bit late to crush Islam in the heart of it's domain. Reduce it to a peasant faith under outside lordship perhaps but literacy is too strongly encouraged to destroy it.

HTG

 

[Grey Wolf]

Zoasterism was the major religion in the Persian Empire and was a monotheistic, scripture based religion and has so few adherents today that relitively few people have heard of it.

Well, the main reason it is RELATIVELY small is that it was overtaken by conquest, by Islam. There are Zoroastrian communities in Northern Iran - I remember being surprised by the documentary on them, that the government in Tehran let them get on with their lives and traditional ways etc, seeming to reserve strict Islamic law for Muslims, rather like what the case is in Malaysia.

There are also Parsees in India, if I've got the name right ?

And Zoroastrian communities around the world - I once joined a Yahoo group for them out of interest

Grey Wolf

 

[Leo Caesius]

Parsi (or Parsee) is the term for the Zoroastrian community in Gujarat, India. There are a few in Iran - training the local Zoroastrian (or Zardoshti) priests. You see, the community in India is much larger than the one in Iran.

The largest center of Zoroastrian worship in Iran is at Yazd. Most of the fire temples are out of business.

There's also a fire temple on Zanzibar. This was Freddy Mercury's childhood fire temple (he was a Zoroastrian from Zanzibar, you know).

 

[Brilliantlight]

Well, the main reason it is RELATIVELY small is that it was overtaken by conquest, by Islam. Grey Wolf

So what would stop the same people (mostly) to convert to Christianity by conquest? After all Islam is closer to Christianity then Zoasterism. Without the Turks there that may well have happened.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Zoroastrianism (or more properly Mazdaism) was the state religion of Persia - not just a major one. That is part of the reason why it disappeared - not only was its existence tied to the state itself, but the state vigorously persecuted other religions from time to time (the state priest Kerdir brags of having persecuted Manichaeans, Orthodox Christians, Gnostic Christians, Buddhists, Brahmans, Manichaens, Baptists, and so on in one of his inscriptions). Thus it was only natural that all of these oppressed religious minorities would turn to Islam once the curtain fell on the Sassanians.

The Persian Zoroastrians like to tell the tale of how Salman-e Farsi, a companion of the Prophet and the first Persian convert to Islam, managed to hoodwink Muhammad into adopting a watered down version of Zoroastrianism (for such is how they view Islam) by inspiring him with Arabic translations of the Avesta. Consequently, when the Arabs brought Islam to Iran, it wasn't so much the triumph of an alien religion as the homecoming of the old one revised. Or so they say.

 

[Brilliantlight]

Zoroastrianism (or more properly Mazdaism) was the state religion of Persia - not just a major one. That is part of the reason why it disappeared - not only was its existence tied to the state itself, but the state vigorously persecuted other religions from time to time (the state priest Kerdir brags of having persecuted Manichaeans, Orthodox Christians, Gnostic Christians, Buddhists, Brahmans, Manichaens, Baptists, and so on in one of his inscriptions). Thus it was only natural that all of these oppressed religious minorities would turn to Islam once the curtain fell on the Sassanians.

No more natural then turn to Christianity or Buddism or Hinduism if they were the ones to capture Persia.

 

[Leo Caesius]

No more natural then turn to Christianity or Buddism or Hinduism if they were the ones to capture Persia.

My point was that pre-existing conditions held in the Byzantine Empire and Sassanian Empire that made it easy for Islam to insinuate itself and take control. These same conditions generally did not hold for Islam throughout its history - Islam has always been much more liberal towards religious minorities than the Byzantines or the Sassanians ever were. Consequently it is very unlikely that Islam would go the way of Christianity or Zoroastrianism in the Middle East.

 

[Faeelin]

Don't you think Christianity is a bit incompatible with the whole rapacioous horde of horse nomads erupting out of Central Asia?
QUOTE]

Let's see. I can think of a rapacious horde of horse nomads who erupted out of Central Asia who converted to Islam.

They were the Turks.

Are you saying Islam is any more in line with the ideals of such a group? (I know you don't, I'm just illustrating why I think your statement is invalid).

 

[Xen]

Heres a rough map of the 12th Century after Islam fails defeating the Byzantine and Persian Empires. I gave them some successes against both Empires, enough to secure the Mesopatamia but not enough to conquer either. The Muslim Arabs are represented by the Dark Green on the map with all their conquests.

The Persian Empire is larger, expanding eastward, not too hard to imagine with the Barbarians of Central Asia attempting to bust out. They are represented by the blue on the map. Persia continues to adhere to Zorastrianism. Perhaps instead of Islam the Turks convert to the Persian religion?

The Byzantine Empire is still dominating the Black Sea and eastern Europe as well as the eastern Mediterranean. Egypt, Jerusalem, and Syria all are controlled by Constantinople. The Byzantines dont concern themselves too much with the Arabs who have turned their attention to Africa, instead Persia has become the main nemesis, the two Empires always seem to be at war with one another. The Byzantine Protectorates against the Arabs are the Pinkish African lands whom have converted to Christianity to secure Byzantine protection. It would make for an excellent Timeline to see another schism, one between the Orthodox Church in Constantinople and the Coptic Church along the Mediterranean and Africa. Maybe the Copts will have their headquarters in Jerusalem.

The Barbarians of Central Asia are represented by the orange, the Indians are represented by the light Green, and the Rus by the Purplish looking color and the Yellow in Africa represents the various tribes and their tribal religions, maybe they would make good targets for Islamic Conquets?

 

[Grey Wolf]

Hmm the boundaries in Eastern Anatolia look too much like OTL's modern boundaries

Where are Armenia, Georgia for example ?

And even if they don't exist, it still feels too clean round there.

Grey Wolf

 

[Xen]

Its basically a rough map, I really didnt feel like getting to involved in the details. I made that in about 5 minutes just to show what I have going on in my mind. Now if it were a real map, thered be more nationals, particularly in Anatolia such as the Armenians

 

[Hermanubis]

^Armenia was part of the Byzantine Empire about the time of the Arabic conquest, so it could make sense That they might still control it a few hundred years later…

 

[Thande]

Leo, that story you mentioned of the Persian Zoroastrians claiming Islam effectively 'really' originated in Iran reminds me of 'and did those feet, in ancient time...' It doesn't take a sociologist to see that people will always try and tie their religion to their national pride, even if it began thousands of miles away on another continent.

 

[cow defender]

mohammed gets struck by lightning while preaching to a crowd. they take the hint and never again speak of his words.