Is this ASB, and if not...?

I was perusing some AHC's concerning non-whites in positions of power in 19th century America. It seems extremely implausible but a thought occurred. I'm not sure what the consensus on invented diseases as PODs is, but if it's ASB I'll gladly have it moved...

What if a new virus or a mutated strain of an existing virus developed which effected fertility and virility in white people? As in, doesn't kill or hurt people but makes it incredibly difficult for Caucasian people to conceive?

The idea is for the disease to develop in North America and drastically over time limit the population increase and population stability of white people. Ideally the first documented cases should be before the American revolution and reach epidemic levels by the early 19th century and by that time the population of non white Americans is equal or greater than that of Caucasians.

Disclaimer: I'm not anti white and non of that nonsense is allowed. This is simply an inventive way of looking at the United States population with an alternate minority.

With Blacks and Native Americans (and to a lesser degree Latinos, Jews, Asians, Arabs, etc.) in positions of power alongside and even above white people, what kinds of alternate Americas can emerge?

Also,if this is ASB then when it is moved there can the title be changed? Something like "WI: A virus effecting fertility of Caucasians develops in America pre 1800?"

Thanks in advance.
 
Definately asb because what would linit it to just white people? And in the early 1800s there really wasnt large numbers of people besides whites and black slaves and most of those groups wouldnt immigrate in large numbers until the 1900s.
 
What if a new virus or a mutated strain of an existing virus developed which effected fertility and virility in white people? As in, doesn't kill or hurt people but makes it incredibly difficult for Caucasian people to conceive?

Yes, this is ASB. White people don't differ enough genetically from non-white people for this to happen.

Lets face it. Skincolour is a realy arbitrary division between humans and makes biologically no sense. Asking for a virus to limit itself to just white people, is like saying that a virus would limit itself to just blue eyed people.
 
Definately asb because what would linit it to just white people? And in the early 1800s there really wasnt large numbers of people besides whites and black slaves and most of those groups wouldnt immigrate in large numbers until the 1900s.

Yes, this is ASB. White people don't differ enough genetically from non-white people for this to happen.

Lets face it. Skincolour is a realy arbitrary division between humans and makes biologically no sense. Asking for a virus to limit itself to just white people, is like saying that a virus would limit itself to just blue eyed people.
It isn't ASB:

Have this devastating plague appear only in Africa a thousand years before the Age of Exploration, and kill enormous swathes of the people there.After centuries of on-and-off plagues, the only people remaining in Africa will be those who have developed a genetic immunity to the plague, which by now has died out since everyone left is immune to it.

Then, when it is time for the new American disease to break out, have this new American disease attack cells the same way as the old African plague, the same way that the HIV virus attacks cells the same way as the bubonic plague. White people will be vulnerable to the disease, but black people will be immune due to the hereditary immunity to that type of attack of everyone of African descent.
 
It isn't ASB:

Have this devastating plague appear only in Africa a thousand years before the Age of Exploration, and kill enormous swathes of the people there.After centuries of on-and-off plagues, the only people remaining in Africa will be those who have developed a genetic immunity to the plague, which by now has died out since everyone left is immune to it.

Then, when it is time for the new American disease to break out, have this new American disease attack cells the same way as the old African plague, the same way that the HIV virus attacks cells the same way as the bubonic plague. White people will be vulnerable to the disease, but black people will be immune due to the hereditary immunity to that type of attack of everyone of African descent.
In that case it would not be limited to Caucasians, but to all non-subsaharan Africans. Thus Asians, native Americans, etc would all be hit by this plague.
 
In that case it would not be limited to Caucasians, but to all non-subsaharan Africans. Thus Asians, native Americans, etc would all be hit by this plague.
That is true, but for the purpose of creating an OTL-minority-majority state, it works. Having sub-saharan Africans be the ones to "benefit" from the immunity seems the most interesting to me, since I'm sure plenty of people have considered variation of "WI the Americas had an equivalent to smallpox".
 

SunDeep

Banned
That is true, but for the purpose of creating an OTL-minority-majority state, it works. Having sub-saharan Africans be the ones to "benefit" from the immunity seems the most interesting to me, since I'm sure plenty of people have considered variation of "WI the Americas had an equivalent to smallpox".

You don't have to give the Sub-Saharan Africans immunity- they have higher level of genetic diversity than Europeans, so they should develop natural resistance to diseases more quickly. So, for a suggestion, how about an ATL where a HIV-type virus develops in North America, a century earlier than OTL's HIV would have developed in West-Central Africa?
 
There was an interesting novel called Archangel by Michael Conner that explored this premise, and was quite good.

The POD is that during WWI the Germans engage in germ warfare from a virus they found in Africa. The virus gets out of control and those without immunity, which are basically people of non-African descent, start dying.

The novel takes place in the late 1920's in Minneapolis. Worth a read.

In the Media Forum:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=9047935#post9047935
 
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Technically, I suppose that the virus could (somehow) affect the Neanderthal genes that non-Africans have.

But I agree that 'Caucasians' aren't sufficiently different genetically from Asians, say, that a virus could reliably distinguish between them.
 
Definately asb because what would linit it to just white people? And in the early 1800s there really wasnt large numbers of people besides whites and black slaves and most of those groups wouldnt immigrate in large numbers until the 1900s.

What about native Americans?

Yes, this is ASB. White people don't differ enough genetically from non-white people for this to happen.

Lets face it. Skincolour is a realy arbitrary division between humans and makes biologically no sense. Asking for a virus to limit itself to just white people, is like saying that a virus would limit itself to just blue eyed people.

Sickle-Cell Anemia would like a word...

What if it's a mutation of skin cancer that affects fertility? It seems like a stretch but this disease would also still effect other ethnicities only not as much.

There was an interesting novel called Archangel by Michael Conner that explored this premise, and was quite good.

The POD is that during WWI the Germans engage in germ warfare from a virus they found in Africa. The virus gets out of control and those without immunity, which are basically people of non-African descent, start dying.

The novel takes place in the late 1920's in Minneapolis. Worth a read.

In the Media Forum:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=9047935#post9047935

Thanks!

Technically, I suppose that the virus could (somehow) affect the Neanderthal genes that non-Africans have.

But I agree that 'Caucasians' aren't sufficiently different genetically from Asians, say, that a virus could reliably distinguish between them.

Then it should effect Asians as well. How far removed are NA's from Asians? I'd like for African Americans and Native Americans to have a much higher immunity to this illness...

…..........................

Also, I'm not getting a lot of feedback on the effects historically, culturally, politically, etc. on this either domestically or internationally...

Let's presume that by OTL's Civil War blacks and Amerindians are a slight majority over whites, and that by the early twentieth century the disease has spread to Europe.

What does the United States and the World in general look like?
 
With Blacks and Native Americans (and to a lesser degree Latinos, Jews, Asians, Arabs, etc.) in positions of power alongside and even above white people, what kinds of alternate Americas can emerge?

Note: Jews and Arabs are white according to the U.S. Census Bureau, as are over 50% of people who identified as "Hispanic or Latino" (per the most recent census).
 
Note: Jews and Arabs are white according to the U.S. Census Bureau, as are over 50% of people who identified as "Hispanic or Latino" (per the most recent census).


Jews were not always considered "white" until well into the 20th century, and the story of how this happened is a good example of how arbitrary a distinction "race" is.

Here's a page about this issue:

http://jwa.org/teach/livingthelegacy/american-jews-race-identity-and-civil-rights-movement


Humans have less genetic diversity than chimpanzees despite the wide variety of phenotypes and much larger population. Finding an infectious disease that would affect "Caucasians" specifically would be quite difficult. American Indians died more from not being exposed to smallpox, measles, etc. due to isolation of the Western Hemisphere rather than genetic resistance of Europeans. (I think being heterozygous for sickle-cell gives some protection against malaria; that's why the gene so common in Africa.)

Any such story might fit better in a Future History timeline involving prejudiced scientists trying to engineer a disease to target ethnicity-specific genes. Then again, I never said their scheme had to go according to plan, MWA HA HA!
 
Hmmm... Maybe that's what I should have asked for then.
In that case, it would be implausible for a genetic trait to spread across an entire race, if its primary effect is that it kills most people before it has a chance to reproduce. Sickle cell anemia is a condition that only a small minority of Africans have, only if they inherit two of the alleles that change the shape of the red blood cells. If they have one of the alleles, they have a greater immunity to malaria. However, it would be impossible for the majority of the population had such alleles, because the number of people dying of sickle cell anemia would be greater than the number of people saved from malaria, and the people without the allele would reproduce more.
An allele in Europeans that kills people early enough to dramatically decrease their population would not be a successful allele.
 
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