Is This A Plausible Start To A British Revolutionary TL?

My hope is to make a start on a British Revolution in the 18th century TL (Sort of a parralel to the French one) and was on the lookout for potential POD's when I came across one which might be what I'm looking for. At his coronation, King George II was advised by his wife to drop Sir Spencer Compton as a potential Prime Minister and instead give support to Robert Walpole. The POD would be the King ignoring this advice and Compton getting his support while the latter would undermine Walpole's career as revenge and thus prevent him from achieving high office.

This would set the precedent with George II having a strong political hold over the country that would carry onto his son Frederick who see his own power grow with a succession of weak Prime Ministers dependant on Royal patronage. This becomes coupled with a series of bad Wars and Bonnie Prince Charlie being marginaly more successful, coupled with a different American Revolution that nevertheless sees several ideas sinking back to Britain that would help form the nucleus of its own Revolutionary movement against an unpopular and increasingly oppresive Monarchy.

It'd have various factors like the Lunar Society forming the backbone of the Revolution, John Moore becoming rather close to a Napoleon analogue and a weaker British Empire to say the least. Does this sound likely/interesting though? What could be done to make it more plausible?
 
Depends where he puts his talents; Napoleon was a great general but no naval genius.


True, but Moore would have access to capable sailors.

After all, Cromwell didn't know one end of a ship from the other, but the British Navy was highly successful under his regime.
 
Have less success in the great wars and what you have above would be a good footing - eg yes to Bonnie Prince Charlie coming AGAIN in the 1850s with some real support (he had none in OTL by then) and being somewhat successful until a desperate Hannoverian counter-offensive kills him

This would/could undermine Britain's position in both Quebec and India since they would have to focus forces at home. Clive could thus be less successful, whilst Wolfe may never even go to Quebec and remain a young but relatively obscure general - or maybe he gets to shine killing Charlie boy and sets himself for a role in the later decades of the 18tyh century

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
When abouts would this revolution be? the most revolutionary periods in the wobbly era between Pitt and Gray were probably 1796-7, 1815-20, and 1830-32. I don't suppose you want a revolutionary collapse or near-suppression after the French revolution since that hardly puts us in the position for a Napoleon analogue.

Honestly, though, I'm dubious about that. Protracted chaos could well throw up another Cromwell - an obscure but extremely talented officer who sweeps aside or subverts one faction after another and finally steps in with his army to Save The Nation, but then becomes a pretty normal ruler when it comes to conquering Europe - but Napoleon arose from a land war for survival and Britain is an island.

I don't think Britain having a proper enlightenment revolution without the French example is likely in the 1790s. Our circumstances were different, mainly owing to our not being bankrupt.

My favourite British revolution is the early 1830s one - kill William IV and that practically takes care of itself - but an immediately post-Napoleonic one is interesting too.

Bonnie Prince Charlie is a red herring in my opinion: the final Jacobite rising was hardly even a Scottish civil war like the last two, more the dying gasp of the old Highlands. The roads were built, the forts were garrisoned, Highlanders were wearing red coats already: there couldn't be another rising after the '45 (no rising at all and its possible cultural butterflies are an interesting PoD in my opinion, for the Gaelic language and Scotland's image).
 
Aren't a Napoleon analogue and a weaker Empire rather contradictory?

Well the idea I'm having is that the Royal Family manages to escape to Hannover and the Empire (What there is of it at this point anyway) is split various ways. I'm not entirely sure which would go where for the most part although I'd like for this new Britain to retain some influence in India for fun later on.

but then becomes a pretty normal ruler when it comes to conquering Europe - but Napoleon arose from a land war for survival and Britain is an island.

But with an undercertain Ireland one way and a rather wary France just across the Channel. The War I'd be thinking of would stem from a series of conflicts with the British supporting other Revolutionary movements and the whole Continent generally getting involved one way or another through various means.

When abouts would this revolution be?

I was thinking around the 1780's, several decades after the POD so there'd be enough time for the rot to set in.

there couldn't be another rising after the '45

I agree but a revolt that's somewhat more successful in 1745 could produce enough after effects to be interesting in its own right.
 
But with an undercertain Ireland

Hmm? I'd have thought a Commonwealth of Great Britain founded on Enlightenment Revolutionary ideas would get on swimmingly with the United Irishmen.

one way and a rather wary France just across the Channel. The War I'd be thinking of would stem from a series of conflicts with the British supporting other Revolutionary movements and the whole Continent generally getting involved one way or another through various means.

Oh, that could certainly happen - but then, Britain being largely shut out of Europe but sponsoring friendly nations, factions, and rebellions has happened lots of times before. Elizabeth's cold war with Spain never threw up a military dictatorship - and when Britain eventually did throw up a military dictatorship for domestic reasons, it immediately went back to Elizabethan policies.

I was thinking around the 1780's, several decades after the POD so there'd be enough time for the rot to set in.

Well, that's the thing: how much does the ordinary Englishman know or care about America? Revolutionary conditions are created by social change at home, and I don't think Britain was ready. Fuel was only starting to accumulate and there was no spark.

In the 1830s you've got your choice of sparks (Catholic Emancipation, Suffrage Reform...) and - between the Radical War, Captain Swing, the riotous celebrations that broke out after Reform IOTL, the proposed French-style factory lockout, and Daniel O'Connell - the whole country was waiting to ignite.

The 1780s mean less machines, less displaced farmers, less angry and educated weavers. The conditions of that mythical person 'the average Briton' probably were a little better than those of his French opposite number, but the really important thing is that there was a regular parliament and plenty of money, and so nothing to set the fire blazing - except, of course, a revolution somewhere else, war, and the resultant strains and crackdowns.

I agree but a revolt that's somewhat more successful in 1745 could produce enough after effects to be interesting in its own right.

I agree that there's plenty of butterflies to be had from changing the Jacobite Wars, but I seriously doubt how much more successful the doomed enterprise of '45 could have been.
 
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Hmm? I'd have thought a Commonwealth of Great Britain founded on Enlightenment Revolutionary ideas would get on swimmingly with the United Irishmen.

True but it would still be remarkably chaotic in the aftermath of a Revolution in Britain. Regardless of ideology, you're going to get a situation where many people will try to pull the nation in different ways.

but Elizabeth's cold war with Spain never threw up a military dictatorship

Cromwell acted in a similar fashion against Spain with marginally more success though. It wouldn't have to be a dictatorship, more of something that helped to bring about a Revolution on another nation's soil like the OTL French army.

but the really important thing is that there was a regular parliament and plenty of money, and so nothing to set the fire blazing - except, of course, a revolution somewhere else, war, and the resultant strains and crackdowns.

Which is what I'll be aiming for here. A more autocratic government shutting out the middle classes, a series of expensive and ultimately lost wars, a poorer Britain and several other effects from the POD which change the circumstances towards one more open to Revolution. The US Revolution (Such as its form will be) in TTL will largely be the spark in a similar fashion to OTL's French one.

but I seriously doubt how much more successful the doomed enterprise of '45 could have been.

It would largely depend on further research but maybe a more successful '45 could probably be substituted for a more bloody one with the wished for effects.
 
My favorite: George III abdicates following the ARW as he planned to do :eek:

King George IV: 1783-1830? I doubt it. ;)
 
True but it would still be remarkably chaotic in the aftermath of a Revolution in Britain. Regardless of ideology, you're going to get a situation where many people will try to pull the nation in different ways.

True enough. In fact, I wonder whether the UI and the Irish peasantry would meet in the middle at all: it depends on how the Catholic church is treated. But at any rate I find it hard to imagine a revolutionary Britain having more trouble in Ireland than the a reactionary one did.

Cromwell acted in a similar fashion against Spain with marginally more success though. It wouldn't have to be a dictatorship, more of something that helped to bring about a Revolution on another nation's soil like the OTL French army.

But the French army of the revolution - conscription, elan, ambitious lower-middle-class officers rising out of obscurity - happened because France was being invaded by everyone and to survive it had to turn to an early ancestor of total war. Who's going to invade Britain?

The point of my references to Elizabeth and Cromwell is that Britain would treat revlutionaries like it had treated Protestants: exporting the revolution, but on a strictly limit-liability basis.

Which is what I'll be aiming for here. A more autocratic government shutting out the middle classes, a series of expensive and ultimately lost wars, a poorer Britain and several other effects from the POD which change the circumstances towards one more open to Revolution. The US Revolution (Such as its form will be) in TTL will largely be the spark in a similar fashion to OTL's French one.

That's certainly the sort of thing to create a revolutionary situation, but I do have to caution against what I call the coin-flipping fallacy: just because France got the worst of those wars and went bankrupt doesn't mean that if Britain got the worst of it we'd go bankrupt. After all, the French won the last round before their revolution and a lot of good that did them! ;) Britain's wealth came from the merchant marine, which France didn't have.

It would largely depend on further research but maybe a more successful '45 could probably be substituted for a more bloody one with the wished for effects.

Thing is, the effect of the rebellion on a typical Englishman or Lowlander lasted a few months or wasn't felt at all, and the effect on the Highlands has been exaggerated a lot.
 
But at any rate I find it hard to imagine a revolutionary Britain having more trouble in Ireland than the a reactionary one did.

Long term? Probably not. But in the first two years or so would be the time when Britain would have to get a very firm grip on things. A few knocked heads will be needed and that'll be time enough for someone to make a name for themselves for further ends.

The point of my references to Elizabeth and Cromwell is that Britain would treat revlutionaries like it had treated Protestants: exporting the revolution, but on a strictly limit-liability basis.

That was what I was thinking of, Britain falling to Revolution, other European countries slowly going too pot and Britain taking advantage to help spread Revolutionary ideals.

Britain's wealth came from the merchant marine, which France didn't have.

Aye, and the famine that hit France was another factor too in its Revolution. Although this is taking place in a TL with a weaker Britain and its merchant marine is almost certainly going to take a beating from France.

Thing is, the effect of the rebellion on a typical Englishman or Lowlander lasted a few months or wasn't felt at all

I'll look into it and see what can come of it. Even if France actually comes through with its promise for aid in TTL might be one aspect that comes up.
 
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