Not that far-fetched, really, if you look at the history of the PLC. They were used to the occasional foreign king after a certain point, and at numerous junctures, especially later in the Commonwealth, had foreign armies rampaging across the land. The Swedes in particular really wrecked the place during "The Deluge"...
Is there a way for the Polish- Lithuanian Commonwealth to cut down on the power of the nobility?
- Thread starter random_____guy
- Start date
By the way, would anyone be particularly interested in a surviving Commonwealth TL?
Absolutely although it would likely be easier to have it be a more successful if you started before the Commonwealth itself is created in the union of Lublin as has been discussed
If you want early POD to strenghten monarchy there are good options during Jogaila's reign. First-Jogaila's sons are born from his first or second wife, not from his fourth marriage with Zofia Holszańska, who not only lacked Piast blood in her veins but also was relatively low born, thus rights of her sons to Polish throne were questioned.
Second option-kill bishop Zbigniew Oleśnicki early. Oleśnicki was talented and ambitious man and one of most influental persons in early 15th century Poland, but he concentrated his energy to serve interest of the Church (to be more precise-his vision of Conciliarist Catholic Church, which he shared with HRE Sigismund of Luxembourg) and was strong opponent of the King during last years of Jogaila's reign, and then practically most important person in the country during reign of child-king Vladislaus III.
Second option-kill bishop Zbigniew Oleśnicki early. Oleśnicki was talented and ambitious man and one of most influental persons in early 15th century Poland, but he concentrated his energy to serve interest of the Church (to be more precise-his vision of Conciliarist Catholic Church, which he shared with HRE Sigismund of Luxembourg) and was strong opponent of the King during last years of Jogaila's reign, and then practically most important person in the country during reign of child-king Vladislaus III.
Perhaps start before the PLC with Premyslids gaining Poland?
And then that joined kingdom gains Lithuania.
And then that joined kingdom gains Lithuania.
There is no need to go that far back. POD during Jogaila's reign is absolutely sufficient.
Ok so I'm thinking that perhaps the POD will be with Jogailia having a child with his first wife, Jadwiga. That seems to be a good option for POD and a good way for the nobles to be worn down
Now this POD predates the formation of the Commonwealth by more than a century, but what if the Teutonic Order was completely crushed in 1411?
After their great victory at Grunwald, the united Polish-Lithuanian army stayed three days on the battlefield and then marched to the enemy capital of Marienburg at a snail's pace. By the time they finally reached Marienburg's walls, the defenders were ready and withstood the allied siege.
If the Polish-Lithuanians go straight for the jugular right after Grunwald, Marienburg might have fallen and the Knights would have no choice but to make great concessions such as western Prussia and its port of Danzig more than fifty years before they actually did, in 1466.
How would Jogaila's successors have managed this state, which would be stronger than OTL earlier? Would they still have to make numerous concessions to the szlachta?
After their great victory at Grunwald, the united Polish-Lithuanian army stayed three days on the battlefield and then marched to the enemy capital of Marienburg at a snail's pace. By the time they finally reached Marienburg's walls, the defenders were ready and withstood the allied siege.
If the Polish-Lithuanians go straight for the jugular right after Grunwald, Marienburg might have fallen and the Knights would have no choice but to make great concessions such as western Prussia and its port of Danzig more than fifty years before they actually did, in 1466.
How would Jogaila's successors have managed this state, which would be stronger than OTL earlier? Would they still have to make numerous concessions to the szlachta?
Probably not. If Jogalia was able to suppress the Teutonic Knights earlier, then Casimir IV would not have to rely on them later on down the road. So best bet for a good POD is a better situation with suppressing the Teutons and then Jogalia's alternate son would have an easier time suppressing the nobles down the road
Problem is that Jogaila likely didn’t want to entirely crush the Teutonic Knights. They could be a useful tool for him or his descendants later on, as an ally against Poland in case they lost the throne. This is a part of a larger motif in later Polish and Commonwealth history: having kings whose interests were often at odds with the country’s. Ex: Vasa’s trying to get Sweden or Moscow, crazy plans of crusade against the Ottomans.
True. Perhaps Jogalia or his descendants make Prussia a vassal only for some other king way down the line to fully incorporate them. Although if he crushed them more effectively, perhaps Jogalia would have used his diplomatic advantages better than OTL where he was quite modest in the First Peace of Thorn
I read about that on Wikipedia too. Jogaila needs to be convinced that a thoroughly subjugated Order would be better for his dynasty than an independent but weakened one.
Did he really have a choice in being modest? His OTL attempt to take Marienburg floundered badly, after all.
No he didnt but if he had a better time in Prussia perhaps he could be more bold
Interesting. Still, it does seem like the Knights got off rather easy. And there are plenty of instances of the interests of King and Country conflicting.
But not in this case.
Good way to achieve more decisive victory against Teutonic Order is to remove TO's ally Sigismund of Luxembourg from Hungarian throne (as Poles needed to leave significant force in the south to watch Hungarians) but if Sigismund is deposed (that was really close IOTL) or died while Hedwig of Anjou is alive and has kids with Jogaila then she (as last living daughter of Louis the Great) and Jogaila could be installed on Hungarian throne in place of Sigismund (reign of her father was remembered in Hungary as golden age).