Is there A Definitive Source For 191 Military Hardware ?

[Cire]

Can anyone tell me if there is a definitive reference source for military hardware from the 191 timeline? In particular I'm wondering if the 191 US developed a heavy four engine bomber comparable to the Boeing B-29 bomber from OTL, or were they limited to just two engine medium bombers similar to the Mitchell B-25 from OTL?

Any info greatly appreciated.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

No there is no such thing, just guesses mostly

Given that the 191 US deployed nuclear weapons, you need a bomber of the B-29's performance to do that and survive so signs point to yes. What they likely did not have was as many as the OTL USAAF, or a second backup design in full production (B-32 Dominator)

 

[Trotsky]

The very first scene of Drive to the East has U.S. both two- and four-engine bombers hitting Richmond, so there is that.

 

[Cire]

The very first scene of Drive to the East has U.S. both two- and four-engine bombers hitting Richmond, so there is that.

Do you happen to recall the manufacturer and model designation for the bombers hitting Richmond? It seems to me that I remember a line from somewhere within the Settling Accounts series in which US military commanders were lamenting the fact that they didn't have a heavy four engine bomber that could strike targets at extended ranges?

Well, since they apparently had four engine bombers to hit Richmond, I'm going to guess that they would have been something similar to the Consolidated B-32 Dominator, and that they probably wouldn't have spent their time developing something like the Boeing B-29, because they weren't really fighting a global war as we were in OTL.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Do you happen to recall the manufacturer and model designation for the bombers hitting Richmond? It seems to me that I remember a line from somewhere within the Settling Accounts series in which US military commanders were lamenting the fact that they didn't have a heavy four engine bomber that could strike targets at extended ranges?

Well, since they apparently had four engine bombers to hit Richmond, I'm going to guess that they would have been something similar to the Consolidated B-32 Dominator, and that they probably wouldn't have spent their time developing something like the Boeing B-29, because they weren't really fighting a global war as we were in OTL.

No model numbers or manufacturers mentioned anywhere really, which would make sense given the butterflies. It would depend on where in the trilogy you heard that, in any book but In At the Death them saying that doesn't really contradict having a B-29/B-32 expy to deliver the nukes in that book. Quite possible they only get such bombers operational in In At the Death and then only in very small numbers

B-32 Dominator was designed for the same spec as the B-29, both had about the same rage.

 

[Tiro]

Can anyone tell me if there is a definitive reference source for military hardware from the 191 timeline?

Such a resource would very definitely be helpful - how detailed would it need to be? (i.e. do we include only what happens to be mentioned in the novels or would we be obliged to list "known unknowns" as well?).

 

[Tiro]

By "known unknowns" I mean weapons & vehicles not explicitly referred to, but which we might reasonably attribute to the various factions (based on their availability and association with specific Great Powers); i.e. if the Russians had Nieuport fighters during the First World War, then the CSA would almost certainly have them during the Great War.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

By "known unknowns" I mean weapons & vehicles not explicitly referred to, but which we might reasonably attribute to the various factions (based on their availability and association with specific Great Powers); i.e. if the Russians had Nieuport fighters during the First World War, then the CSA would almost certainly have them during the Great War.

The issue is that you can't really attribute anything from OTL to 191. To use your examples, unless it was specifically stated to exist in the text, does Nieuport even exist as an aviation company in 191. Given that it was founded in 1902 as an engine company, that is 40 years after the POD. It becoming an aviation company took until 1909, but aviation is a field that will be affected by butterflies as the Wright brothers would now live in a different country from their OTL test site, plus the North American aviation community is more heavly fractured

We can't really look at known unknowns more than the vaguest generalities. IE the CSA has some pretensions to being a great power, so they would have a few Dreadnought battleships, etc.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_in_the_Southern_Victory_Series#Weapons

Has a pretty good list.

- BNC

 

[Trotsky]

Do you happen to recall the manufacturer and model designation for the bombers hitting Richmond? It seems to me that I remember a line from somewhere within the Settling Accounts series in which US military commanders were lamenting the fact that they didn't have a heavy four engine bomber that could strike targets at extended ranges?

Wright was the only manufacturer of any of the planes used in either war I recall mentioned.

Well, since they apparently had four engine bombers to hit Richmond, I'm going to guess that they would have been something similar to the Consolidated B-32 Dominator, and that they probably wouldn't have spent their time developing something like the Boeing B-29, because they weren't really fighting a global war as we were in OTL.

They could have developed a B-29 just simply to reach distant targets in the Central Pacific, or Miami and Habana in the CSA. But then, given the massive priorities toward protecting the inner-American border and the coasts, especially once the Snake turned out to be a snake in the early Forties, maybe not.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

They could have developed a B-29 just simply to reach distant targets in the Central Pacific, or Miami and Habana in the CSA. But then, given the massive priorities toward protecting the inner-American border and the coasts, especially once the Snake turned out to be a snake in the early Forties, maybe not.

Well they may not have a B-29, but they have something with similar speed, altitude performance and payload by the last book to perform the nuclear strikes. May not have range, armament and some other features of the B-29, but would match it in a few metrics

 

[Petike]

Can anyone tell me if there is a definitive reference source for military hardware from the 191 timeline? In particular I'm wondering if the 191 US developed a heavy four engine bomber comparable to the Boeing B-29 bomber from OTL, or were they limited to just two engine medium bombers similar to the Mitchell B-25 from OTL?

Any info greatly appreciated.

As others have said, there is no definitive source. Harry isn't going to be making a TL-191 version of Pottermore, where he'll publish various "juicy details" and concept art from the TL-191 setting.

What info I can provide is here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/wi...victory#ahcom_discussions_on_this_book_series
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ounts-historical-accuracy-corrections.248014/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/tl-191-military.117977/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/tl-191-gw2-german-military.394889/
http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/Category:United_States_Military - collections of info on the US military, including its vehicles and weapons, with some fan art or placeholders of the planes and such
http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Confederate_States_Military - collections of info on the CSA military, including its vehicles and weapons, with some fan art or placeholders of the planes and such
https://1wyrmshadow1.deviantart.com/gallery/23692135/Random-3d-art - wyrmshadow, who used to be a member here, had some neat 3D renders of TL-191 military equipment from GWI and GWII; not sure he still has them uploaded

 

[Tiro]

We can't really look at known unknowns more than the vaguest generalities.

You raise a fair point, though for my money it makes more sense to incorporate weapons and corporations from Our History into Timeline-191 for the sake of accessibility (doubtless any readers with knowledge of the period will appreciate the shout-out to their interests), not least because this makes it a good deal easier for readers to look up what has been referenced in the appropriate literature either online or in the library.

To my mind it makes perfect sense for Alternate History to encourage an interest in actual History by incorporating elements from Our Own timeline into the fictional setting; while this is, of course, less rigorous than working out (for example) the entire Arms Industry from whole cloth it does make things far easier for both the author and the reader to conceptualise a consistent frame of reference, which is an advantage not to be sniffed at (I am not saying that things should be IDENTICAL, of course, only that the use of familiar names actually makes it far easier to spot the difference between Our World and a given timeline).

 

[Tiro]

What info I can provide is here

Thank You for taking the time and trouble to compile this list Petike!

 

[Petike]

Thank You for taking the time and trouble to compile this list Petike!

Oh, that list was done years ago and hasn't been updated for a while (though, today, I did add 2-3 links that I've previously overloked).

But thank you.

 

[Cire]

Such a resource would very definitely be helpful - how detailed would it need to be? (i.e. do we include only what happens to be mentioned in the novels or would we be obliged to list "known unknowns" as well?).

Well, definitely what was mentioned in the novels, but some informed speculation might also be useful as well. Also, I couldn't find any info on US four engine bombers of the 191 universe, so after doing some poking around I decided to create the US Boeing B-38 Conqueror heavy bomber. I based my idea on the information I found within the below article regarding the XB-38 prototype bomber from OTL which never went into full production. Also, I was thinking that there would be less need to develop a bomber like the B-29 because in the 191 universe the US isn't really fighting a global war (aren't trying to bomb Japan from remote bases) so maybe they don't really need a strategic bomber like the B-29, and maybe something a little less like the B-38 would have been good enough, maybe.

 

[Cire]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_in_the_Southern_Victory_Series#Weapons

Has a pretty good list.

- BNC

I must have visited that page a hundred times but never bothered to scorll all the way down to the section about weaponry. Dohhh! Homer Simpson voice.

 

[Cire]

As others have said, there is no definitive source. Harry isn't going to be making a TL-191 version of Pottermore, where he'll publish various "juicy details" and concept art from the TL-191 setting.

https://1wyrmshadow1.deviantart.com/gallery/23692135/Random-3d-art - wyrmshadow, who used to be a member here, had some neat 3D renders of TL-191 military equipment from GWI and GWII; not sure he still has them uploaded

You know, I think that I may have stumbled across the work of, 1Wyrmshadow1, a few years ago (some of it looks very familiar) but I'm wondering if he used to have a lot more information on that page back then than he does today? Anyway, it looks like Turtledove was deliberately vague when he was writing about certain types of things such as military technology, but for some reason he seemed to enjoy going on and on about a spat between Flora Hamburger and her sister (who wants to read about chick stuff?) Anyway, thanks for the above info, I've looked through, and have taken some notes.

 

[Cire]

To my mind it makes perfect sense for Alternate History to encourage an interest in actual History by incorporating elements from Our Own timeline into the fictional setting;

I agree, and as long as we don't directly contradict anything that was written in the original novels, why not have some fun by speculating on things, and maybe even making up some short stories of our own.

 

[Tiro]

who wants to read about chick stuff?

Well, women and men who take an interest in how the other half live and people who have more fun following family disagreements than trying to crunch through a backlog of technical details worthy of David Weber?