Is the World Big Enough
- Thread starter Geomec
- Start date
A US that annexes all of Canada would fit the bill easily enough, and exceed Russia's area by roughly 700,000 square miles. There are any number of PODs that lead to this, either by US-UK war in the late 19th-early 20th centuries or by Canada joining the War of Independence.
Another, much more difficult route is keeping the great colonial empires of France and Britain intact; I'm fairly sure they both exceeded both modern and contemporary Russia in sheer land area.
Phyrx
Banned
I don't think it'd be hard for the US to get Canada by 2012, whether it's during the Revolution or later on. Or, of course, if you prevent the American Revolution you might get a Dominion of North America that would encompass more or less the same territory.
EDIT: Ha, people rendered my post moot by posting faster than me.
EDIT: Ha, people rendered my post moot by posting faster than me.
Eh. America has assimilated more troublesome minorities in the past. We're doing it to you now, even as you bask in your universal healthcare and hockey and Tim Hortons. Cling to them, for they will be all you have left!
If you avert decolonization, probably by having the world war(s) not end with someone like Woodrow Wilson trying to undo imperialism, you could probably keep imperialist sentiments alive by injecting more white supremacism, jingoism, and dickishness into whichever set of empires won the war(s), making the world a rather worse place in the process. This could easily result in several nations as big or bigger than Russia, as it did in real life.
If you're looking for an entirely contiguous nation, though, your best bets are the USA and Canada coming together, as already mentioned, or a wanked Asian nation, probably a China that doesn't stagnate technologically relative to the rest of the world and manages to resist imperialism. However, such a nation would likely come into conflict with Russia, and I'm not sure how that would affect either power. This isn't my particular area of expertise, so I'd appreciate it if someone would correct me if this is utterly unrealistic.
If you're looking for an entirely contiguous nation, though, your best bets are the USA and Canada coming together, as already mentioned, or a wanked Asian nation, probably a China that doesn't stagnate technologically relative to the rest of the world and manages to resist imperialism. However, such a nation would likely come into conflict with Russia, and I'm not sure how that would affect either power. This isn't my particular area of expertise, so I'd appreciate it if someone would correct me if this is utterly unrealistic.
Jimmyson
Banned
How about the American Revolution is stopped, and Napoleon never arrives could Spain keep it's new world territory's under control. As Napoleon severely weakened Spain, and I believe the US revolution inspired the South American and Mexican Revolutions. Spain will still have claims to Oregon in this timeline, due to the fact it was the US that forced them to give it up. We may need a more liberal Spanish Monarch on the throne however, to keep order in the colonies. After this a stronger Spain may be able to merge with Portugal and gain it's territory
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How about China expanding south and west, taking Nepal, India and Afganistan?
That would do it.
That would do it.
China conquering India is ASB for multiple reasons, plus China was never that interested in the area South of the Himalayas.
Add Venezuela and the Guyana Shield and that's what would likely happen if Castile was united with Portugal instead of Aragon.
Britain holds onto the 13 colonies.
A British Empire that eventually incorporates most of the modern day USA, all of Canada, the UK proper, miscellaneous Caribbean outposts, whatever she can pick up in the scramble for Africa, as well as India, Australia and New Zealand.
It would be a beast in terms of its spread, territory and population.
A British Empire that eventually incorporates most of the modern day USA, all of Canada, the UK proper, miscellaneous Caribbean outposts, whatever she can pick up in the scramble for Africa, as well as India, Australia and New Zealand.
It would be a beast in terms of its spread, territory and population.
Actually, this is not too likely given basic geography and the fact that Russia could spread from the Urals to the Pacific facing only tribal societies. Without going into antiquity for a PoD, only the USA had a roughly equivalent situation - and it ran into the Pacific Ocean much sooner. With a PoD after the Age of Discovery (1500s), here's my list of possibilities in order of likelihood:
A North American Federation (USA/Canada merger). This doesn't have to be an Ameri-wank US annexing Canada situation. Let's say there is no American Revolution (or it is defeated). British North America eventually expands to the Pacific including most or all of the modern US and Canada. Britain eventually creates a Canada-like federation in north america and it evolves into an independent nation.
Hispanic-American Federation.Iin the early 19th century, rather than many different countries, the independence movements in Spanish America lead to the formation of a single federation or confederation extending from Mexico into South America (excepting Brazil). This might have occured as a response to pressure for a Spain that more aggressively sought to retain its Empire or common concerns that (absent a US Monroe Doctrine or something equivalent) the newly independent states might be threatend by other adventurist European empires in 18th/19th centuries.
A Francophone North America. France wins the 7 years war, or at least the portions of it fought in the Americas. They keep Quebec and take what had been the British colonies. Eventually a nation developes that stretches from Quebec to Lousiana, including all of eastern North America. Then parts of Russian America are gobbled up.
Other options (whch I consider fairly unlikely due to the closeness of other competing advanced powers) might be something Ottoman/Islamic extending from India to north and east africa, or an enlarged Chinese Empire of some sort - maybe taking Siberia
A North American Federation (USA/Canada merger). This doesn't have to be an Ameri-wank US annexing Canada situation. Let's say there is no American Revolution (or it is defeated). British North America eventually expands to the Pacific including most or all of the modern US and Canada. Britain eventually creates a Canada-like federation in north america and it evolves into an independent nation.
Hispanic-American Federation.Iin the early 19th century, rather than many different countries, the independence movements in Spanish America lead to the formation of a single federation or confederation extending from Mexico into South America (excepting Brazil). This might have occured as a response to pressure for a Spain that more aggressively sought to retain its Empire or common concerns that (absent a US Monroe Doctrine or something equivalent) the newly independent states might be threatend by other adventurist European empires in 18th/19th centuries.
A Francophone North America. France wins the 7 years war, or at least the portions of it fought in the Americas. They keep Quebec and take what had been the British colonies. Eventually a nation developes that stretches from Quebec to Lousiana, including all of eastern North America. Then parts of Russian America are gobbled up.
Other options (whch I consider fairly unlikely due to the closeness of other competing advanced powers) might be something Ottoman/Islamic extending from India to north and east africa, or an enlarged Chinese Empire of some sort - maybe taking Siberia
Two words: (The) Great Game.
The only time that China could have expanded into the areas you mentioned was during the Qing dynasty, because the only other dynasty to control Tibet politically was the Yuan. The Tang would be the next closest possibility, but they overexpanded themselves to some extent after taking Central Asia, as shown in the An Shi Rebellion. If it was hard to militarily control areas outside of China proper, I highly doubt they could have expanded even into Tibet, especially because the latter was also a powerful state that conflicted with the Tang over Central Asia, and even sacked Chang'an. The Yuan already had issues with the other Khaganates, so expanding to the west and south could have made matters worse for the dynasty.
China regarded India as a source for Buddhism, so it would be extremely hard to make the Tang even attempt to invade any of the Indian states, not to mention the geography in the Himalayas. The Qing probably could not have expanded any further because they conflicted with Russia to the north, Britain was influencing Tibet from India, and France attempted to open settlements in southern China from Indochina. It could have expanded in the 1700s before the tensions existed, but it had already overexpanded itself, and were unable to take Burma, so I think it would be highly unlikely.
In line with the above, I'm not sure how China could hold all of the areas you mentioned at the same time unless you can come up with a significant butterfly before 500. Because the northern nomads were able to use horses efficiently, the Han never completely absorbed the Xiongnu, the Tang never politically absorbed the Gokturks, although some joined the Chinese in certain expeditions, and the Ming was unable to conquer the Northern Yuan, which caused them to rebuild the Great Wall. The Qing did control Mongolia directly, but you would need to butterfly away Russian influence significantly to prevent Mongolian independence, or make sure that the Nationalists reunify China after World War II. The PRC did not invade Mongolia because they viewed it as a political ally.
The last time that China invaded Korea, it took 70 years to conquer the peninsula. Goguryeo fell mostly because it was politically unstable, and Silla allied with the Tang. One of the reasons that the Sui fell was because they spent four costly campaigns trying to vanquish the state, and it took three more by the Tang to finally accomplish their objectives. However, Silla quickly retook control of most of the peninsula, and Balhae was established 30 years after Goguryeo fell, eventually going on to reclaim most of Goguryeo's former territory. The Mongols invaded Goryeo for 40 years, and ultimately decided to grant it autonomy with a compulsory military alliance under the Yuan. Joseon was established because its founder pledged to retain close links with the Ming, and the latter came to Korea's aid when Japan invaded it. Vietnam was a Chinese province until around 900, but it only consisted of the area around Hanoi, and I highly doubt that any of the Chinese dynasties would take the trouble to invade Champa when it was a loyal tributary when they had more pressing issues, not to mention the Khmer Empire.
In other words, Russia is able to retain its size mostly because most of its territory consists of Siberia, which means that it is sparsely populated. In order to have a state which is of comparable size, you would need to find a large region that was barely populated to begin with, and almost no competition from other countries. The latter is probably why North and South America could not have hosted such a large country, not to mention geographic conditions.
I'd say this is possible even with a post-1939 PoD. Total area is about ~20,632 km2
Please explain how this is possible with a post-1939 PoD? Are you talking about an actual unified or federalized nation, or an EU-like association? Looks like it's a wishful thinkers view of some sort of conglomerate of NATO, the EU, with some other oddities throw in. Surely, you are not thinking of a German WW2 victory including the conquest of Britain (with Canada)?
Eurofed
Banned
Yeah, fear the separatist Canuck guerrillas freezing and starving to death far deep in the Big White North once the much more numerous and powerful Yankees grab and entrench their control of the narrow strip that is settled Canada.
