Is the Philippines destined to be screwed in every history?

Philippines has a great potential. An independent 1st Republic within the US sphere of influence that does not screw up, or a post 1945 with Magsaysay surviving, EcoBoom TL is a good TL that works off that. 1823 is a great potential for the Philippines to become a major regional power in Southeast and East Asia. Novales Revolt is going to be included in a TL I am working on.

By the way, do any of you have the numbers of the of naval ships Spain had for the Spanish East Indies? It will really help on my TL.

I don't have a link to the post here but from what I have read on the matter the Spanish Navy got pretty beat up at the battle of Trafalgar and their numbers were in a bit of a slump after that. I am not sure of the numbers in the area of the Philippines but the person who had posted the information stated that there were 150 ships of various types in the entire navy around that time with plans to build another 102. The title of the post is Spanish Navy, 1780-1820. I hope this helps.
 
The Philippines is destined to be screwed up because of administrative faults by the Spaniards like centralization instead of pursuing self-government for each regions in the country. Because of that, future process of federalization as Rodrigo Duterte has been advocating for would be painful for those who has been benefiting with the current system for years.

The protectionist attitude of Filipinos, despite of its geography meant for open free trade and investment, can be traced back to the mercantilist economic policies by the Spanish administrators from Mexico where the PH trade had relied 100% with the Galleon Trade with Mexico with only Spanish-owned vessels be allowed to operate instead of letting the PH to trade with the rest of the world like Britain, France, Portugal, and Netherlands from the start of Spanish colonization.

The problem of ethno-linguistic nationalism can be traced back also with the lack of massive Peninsular and Latin American immigration to the country as the elites who were mostly Chinese in ancestry, have had no interests in spreading Spanish language to the general population as they want to be assimilated with the majority Austronesians who were speaking their respective languages. Had Philippine-born Spaniards or Latin Americans were proportionally numerous (let's say, 20% of the population) as the Sangleys, they can impose the majority Austronesians to speak Spanish and once Austronesians speak the language as native, there won't be language barriers anymore that have contributed to misunderstanding of cultures as Tagalogs cannot easily understand Visayan rumors for example, or vice versa. Without language barriers would mean everyone in the country can feel part of a one nation bonded by a common language unlike in OTL.
 
The Philippines is destined to be screwed up because of administrative faults by the Spaniards like centralization instead of pursuing self-government for each regions in the country. Because of that, future process of federalization as Rodrigo Duterte has been advocating for would be painful for those who has been benefiting with the current system for years.

The protectionist attitude of Filipinos, despite of its geography meant for open free trade and investment, can be traced back to the mercantilist economic policies by the Spanish administrators from Mexico where the PH trade had relied 100% with the Galleon Trade with Mexico with only Spanish-owned vessels be allowed to operate instead of letting the PH to trade with the rest of the world like Britain, France, Portugal, and Netherlands from the start of Spanish colonization.

The problem of ethno-linguistic nationalism can be traced back also with the lack of massive Peninsular and Latin American immigration to the country as the elites who were mostly Chinese in ancestry, have had no interests in spreading Spanish language to the general population as they want to be assimilated with the majority Austronesians who were speaking their respective languages. Had Philippine-born Spaniards or Latin Americans were proportionally numerous (let's say, 20% of the population) as the Sangleys, they can impose the majority Austronesians to speak Spanish and once Austronesians speak the language as native, there won't be language barriers anymore that have contributed to misunderstanding of cultures as Tagalogs cannot easily understand Visayan rumors for example, or vice versa. Without language barriers would mean everyone in the country can feel part of a one nation bonded by a common language unlike in OTL.
What about having stronger regional nationalism like in Luzon having its revolt and start a national mythos, I think a balkanized Philippines would be better in the long run.

I am working for a Maniago-Malong revolt TL.
 
The Philippines is destined to be screwed up because of administrative faults by the Spaniards like centralization instead of pursuing self-government for each regions in the country. Because of that, future process of federalization as Rodrigo Duterte has been advocating for would be painful for those who has been benefiting with the current system for years.

The protectionist attitude of Filipinos, despite of its geography meant for open free trade and investment, can be traced back to the mercantilist economic policies by the Spanish administrators from Mexico where the PH trade had relied 100% with the Galleon Trade with Mexico with only Spanish-owned vessels be allowed to operate instead of letting the PH to trade with the rest of the world like Britain, France, Portugal, and Netherlands from the start of Spanish colonization.

The problem of ethno-linguistic nationalism can be traced back also with the lack of massive Peninsular and Latin American immigration to the country as the elites who were mostly Chinese in ancestry, have had no interests in spreading Spanish language to the general population as they want to be assimilated with the majority Austronesians who were speaking their respective languages. Had Philippine-born Spaniards or Latin Americans were proportionally numerous (let's say, 20% of the population) as the Sangleys, they can impose the majority Austronesians to speak Spanish and once Austronesians speak the language as native, there won't be language barriers anymore that have contributed to misunderstanding of cultures as Tagalogs cannot easily understand Visayan rumors for example, or vice versa. Without language barriers would mean everyone in the country can feel part of a one nation bonded by a common language unlike in OTL.

Centralization can work. Look at Japan.

1820s is the perfect time to change the mercantilist policies, since it's at the tail-end of the Galleon trade. Indeed, the reason Filipino nationalism started to become a thing was the end of the Galleon trade and their opening up Manila to everyone while making the Philippines into a direct colony of Spain. The former led to the rise of a Philippine middle class and the latter led to said middle class complaining.
 
The problem of ethno-linguistic nationalism can be traced back also with the lack of massive Peninsular and Latin American immigration to the country as the elites who were mostly Chinese in ancestry, have had no interests in spreading Spanish language to the general population as they want to be assimilated with the majority Austronesians who were speaking their respective languages. Had Philippine-born Spaniards or Latin Americans were proportionally numerous (let's say, 20% of the population) as the Sangleys, they can impose the majority Austronesians to speak Spanish and once Austronesians speak the language as native, there won't be language barriers anymore that have contributed to misunderstanding of cultures as Tagalogs cannot easily understand Visayan rumors for example, or vice versa. Without language barriers would mean everyone in the country can feel part of a one nation bonded by a common language unlike in OTL.
Well, you should actually consider the development of Philippine Creole Spanish/Chavacano because more often than not, massive immigration of Spaniards and Latin Americans would be mostly composed of men and eventually intermarried with either Austronesians or assimilated Chinese; that would be true in places like Cavite and Manila, where there's an already existing Chavacano-speaking population.
 
Well, you should actually consider the development of Philippine Creole Spanish/Chavacano because more often than not, massive immigration of Spaniards and Latin Americans would be mostly composed of men and eventually intermarried with either Austronesians or assimilated Chinese; that would be true in places like Cavite and Manila, where there's an already existing Chavacano-speaking population.

The main problem in the Philippines is their attitude, if a majority of the population were not coward, complacent and easily bribed I think the Philippines would be better off, the filipinos are generally cowards against the Spanish and Americans and don't assert their rights, the ethnic groups that weren't like that became the minority, which I am trying to prevent in my Timeline.
 
Centralization can work. Look at Japan.

We are too different from Japan as you look its geography, Japan is so concentrated with Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu while our country is so fragmented with bunches of 7,107 islands with different cultures and languages. We should stop emulating Japan because we cannot even fully accept their cultural practices like harakiri.

1820s is the perfect time to change the mercantilist policies, since it's at the tail-end of the Galleon trade. Indeed, the reason Filipino nationalism started to become a thing was the end of the Galleon trade and their opening up Manila to everyone while making the Philippines into a direct colony of Spain. The former led to the rise of a Philippine middle class and the latter led to said middle class complaining.

Actually, 60 years earlier or right after the brief British occupation in Manila would have been the perfect time to open the Philippines to global trade as earlier opening and direct control from Spain would have meant more immigration from Spain, Latin America, and China and more immigrants and their descendants would have meant much larger middle class population that the Spanish colonial administrators would surely give in with the demands from these people. More Spaniards in the government administration and civil service would have surely threaten the grip of the friars as there would have been more competition in filling government jobs.
 
We are too different from Japan as you look its geography, Japan is so concentrated with Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu while our country is so fragmented with bunches of 7,107 islands with different cultures and languages. We should stop emulating Japan because we cannot even fully accept their cultural practices like harakiri.



Actually, 60 years earlier or right after the brief British occupation in Manila would have been the perfect time to open the Philippines to global trade as earlier opening and direct control from Spain would have meant more immigration from Spain, Latin America, and China and more immigrants and their descendants would have meant much larger middle class population that the Spanish colonial administrators would surely give in with the demands from these people. More Spaniards in the government administration and civil service would have surely threaten the grip of the friars as there would have been more competition in filling government jobs.

I think the best would be a balkanization for the Philippines.
 
Well, you should actually consider the development of Philippine Creole Spanish/Chavacano because more often than not, massive immigration of Spaniards and Latin Americans would be mostly composed of men and eventually intermarried with either Austronesians or assimilated Chinese; that would be true in places like Cavite and Manila, where there's an already existing Chavacano-speaking population.

Massive presence of Spanish and Latin American immigrants to the country would inevitably driven the friars out of government administration and civil service and impose their language which was Standard Spanish to the Austronesians and assimilated Chinese. Creole-led Philippines instead of Sangley-led of OTL would have more affection with Spanish culture especially the language and they would likely look at Europe as a model of modernization of the country. Since creoles wanted to interact with Spain and Latin America more than the Sangleys, using Standard Spanish language is a must. Philippine Creole Spanish was only developed because of lack of massive education of Standard Spanish to the general population until 1860s and creole-led Philippines would likely force schools, colleges, and universities to use Standard Spanish.
 
We are too different from Japan as you look its geography, Japan is so concentrated with Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu while our country is so fragmented with bunches of 7,107 islands with different cultures and languages. We should stop emulating Japan because we cannot even fully accept their cultural practices like harakiri.

There is different cultural practices but it has nothing to do with harikiri. One of the common things about successful countries is not necessarily hariki but them being business oriented and maximization of resources, opportunism.

Philippines never maximize/optimized their resources. When you got gold and iron but no steel production, it is something you can consider. Plus the fact that Philippines has been constantly exposed to western ideas since 1500s while Japan recently opened up in the end of 19th century.

I believe what Timaeus said is that centralization works not necessarily would work for OTL Philippines. Your idea is for the whole governance to adapt to Filipino culture. The idea of centralization works means Filipino culture/mentality must change from OTL.

Actually, 60 years earlier or right after the brief British occupation in Manila would have been the perfect time to open the Philippines to global trade as earlier opening and direct control from Spain would have meant more immigration from Spain, Latin America, and China and more immigrants and their descendants would have meant much larger middle class population that the Spanish colonial administrators would surely give in with the demands from these people. More Spaniards in the government administration and civil service would have surely threaten the grip of the friars as there would have been more competition in filling government jobs.

Free trade for the Philippines is the way for the population who have an employee/salary mentality. If you have entrepreneurial culture/society, one would prefer a protectionism initially.

Well, if you are not going to butterfly OTL Spanish colonial governance, no amount of colonial middle class demand will change their policies in the colonies. Middle class means locally in the Philippines, you are insulares, mestizo eventually after the years. And the OTL policy is mostly against them, who are already more populous than the peninsulares.
 
Philippine Creole Spanish was only developed because of lack of massive education of Standard Spanish to the general population until 1860s and creole-led Philippines would likely force schools, colleges, and universities to use Standard Spanish.
Well, at that moment Philippine Creole Spanish was spoken as a mother tongue by a part of the Philippine population, so there's a tendency of disglosia
 
We are too different from Japan as you look its geography, Japan is so concentrated with Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu while our country is so fragmented with bunches of 7,107 islands with different cultures and languages. We should stop emulating Japan because we cannot even fully accept their cultural practices like harakiri.

By that analogy, we shouldn't try to understand Western science because it's too different from our own practices.

They made it with mountainous terrain and a number of tribes. They assimilated the latter and made the former a non-issue.

Actually, 60 years earlier or right after the brief British occupation in Manila would have been the perfect time to open the Philippines to global trade as earlier opening and direct control from Spain would have meant more immigration from Spain, Latin America, and China and more immigrants and their descendants would have meant much larger middle class population that the Spanish colonial administrators would surely give in with the demands from these people. More Spaniards in the government administration and civil service would have surely threaten the grip of the friars as there would have been more competition in filling government jobs.

I agree with this. The breaking of the Galleon trade and opening the Philippines as an open port in the mid-18th century would help with a larger Philippine middle class. And it could boost the economies of the Spanish colonies as a whole.

Perhaps a more decisive British victory over the French? Or a longer Seven Years' War?
 
Well, at that moment Philippine Creole Spanish was spoken as a mother tongue by a part of the Philippine population, so there's a tendency of disglosia

Philippine Creole Spanish would eventually decreolized and in fact in OTL, that process was ongoing but American colonization stopped it as Standard Spanish was set aside in favor of English in public school instruction and government administration.
 
I agree with this. The breaking of the Galleon trade and opening the Philippines as an open port in the mid-18th century would help with a larger Philippine middle class. And it could boost the economies of the Spanish colonies as a whole.

Perhaps a more decisive British victory over the French? Or a longer Seven Years' War?

That has been the cash cow for the Spanish and the Chinese. Who can predict that there would be industrialization in the succeeding century?

The richest insular nation in Europe was France. So, the British can only win more overseas but couldnt really win in Europe.

The best place for this is British decisive victory in the Philippines. But that requires the Filipinos not actually helping and volunteering when the Spanish raised local armies in the Seven years war.

Of course, that wont retain Philippines as a Spanish colony. However, British colonial policy in 1760s would be better for the economy. The next thing would be if the Philippines would be loyal to Britain or simply just rebel like the USA a decade after. And judging by the slow pace of information in the Seven years war, the british wont know that the Colony is rebelling until the rebellion is either crushed or successful.
 
Kudos!

I don't have a link to the post here but from what I have read on the matter the Spanish Navy got pretty beat up at the battle of Trafalgar and their numbers were in a bit of a slump after that. I am not sure of the numbers in the area of the Philippines but the person who had posted the information stated that there were 150 ships of various types in the entire navy around that time with plans to build another 102. The title of the post is Spanish Navy, 1780-1820. I hope this helps.

http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/915873/Spanish Navy

http://www.todoababor.es/listado/index.htm

--

Found it and thanks for telling me about this. This is going to help me write my TL!

We are too different from Japan as you look its geography, Japan is so concentrated with Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu while our country is so fragmented with bunches of 7,107 islands with different cultures and languages. We should stop emulating Japan because we cannot even fully accept their cultural practices like harakiri.

I think the main thing we need is one of the Kingdoms of the Philippines to unite the archipelago before the Spanish arrive. I had an idea in which one of the rulers of Tondo conquers the entire archipelago though under the premise of having some prophetic dream that tells him that he is destined to the ruler lands surrounding him (OTL Philippines).

I was also reading on wikipedia and if we could have something like this for Tondo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu_Kingdom#History

"Many Chinese moved to Ryukyu to serve the government or to engage in business during this period. At the request of the Ryukyuan King, the Ming Chinese sent 36 Chinese families from Fujian to manage oceanic dealings in the kingdom in 1392 during the Hongwu emperor's reign. Many Ryukyuan officials were descended from these Chinese immigrants, being born in China or having Chinese grandfathers.[1] They assisted the Ryukyuans in advancing their technology and diplomatic relations.[2][3][4]"

Then their is a greater possibility for a more advanced polity on the Philippines to unite the islands simply over technological superiority over the Chinese, thus Sinicized Philippines but necessarily with the Chinese conquering it.
 
The Philippines as it emerged OTL? Probably yes: it's too fractious internally and wanking it to great power status would be left to blind luck as it probably requires a strongman-type leader who actually enacts farsighted policies for the country. As far as governance is concerned, its native habitat is balkanization/decentralization like what it was before the Spanish arrived. Like what was mentioned, if we go the centralization route, restricting the concept or "Philippines" to just Luzon is a better bet.

Now, back on the balkanization thing: I think an interesting (and possibly unexplored) system that unites the various polities of the Philippines and yet grants almost all of them local self-rule would be one such that they consistently unite under one banner only during external threats and then go back to their own business afterwards. This would gradually evolve into a more cohesive state as they find their adversaries becoming more sophisticated over time.
 

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The main problem in the Philippines is their attitude, if a majority of the population were not coward, complacent and easily bribed I think the Philippines would be better off, the filipinos are generally cowards against the Spanish and Americans and don't assert their rights, the ethnic groups that weren't like that became the minority, which I am trying to prevent in my Timeline.

Don't think much of your countrymen do you?

There ARE other members here from the Philippines. Please don't insult them or the rest of the membership.
 
Then their is a greater possibility for a more advanced polity on the Philippines to unite the islands simply over technological superiority over the Chinese, thus Sinicized Philippines but necessarily with the Chinese conquering it.

What about having Majapahit displaced to Luzon by bali and nusa tengarra ruled by the spanish/portuguese.
 
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Okay, but I am trying to tell the truth that it was not Military success of the Spanish that allowed the spanish to remain control in the Philippines but rather the fact that aside from traitors there were many in the population who are allowing the spanish to rule because of temporary benefits and this attitude still exists, causing present problems.

Silent majorities and "I was only following orders" is not a uniquely Filipino attitude. Factionalism isn't either. Nor clan politics, even.
 
We Filipinos have a lot of self hatred. Well, some of us, at least. Comes with being Catholic and living in a shithole of a nation. After all, that's why this thread exists.


Aside from Self-Hatred but also complacency and lack of integrity, there are also filipinos who have integrity and patriotism like me, I feel insulted by this problem.
 
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