Is Rome Worth One Man's Life? 2.0-A Roman TL
- Thread starter SlyDessertFox
- Start date
Indeed, whoever controls the Mediterranean controls times stomachs. Lepidus is indeed struggling mightily.
OTL that was originally Caesar's idea, and Octavian and Antony implemented it after Philippi.
OTL that was originally Caesar's idea, and Octavian and Antony implemented it after Philippi.
I wish to know if Vergil's family was affected as OTL by the confiscation policy, and the poet managed or not to save his family's possessions ITL. I guess however Vergil's life took because of the butterflies a completely different direction, and in general the Roman culture of end first century BC/ start of first century AD...
slydessertfox
Given the naval dominance of Sextus's forces how did Lepidus get to the Balkans and then bring a sizeable force back to Italy? Or is it the case that the main fleet/army can get through but the Csearians [or whatever their called] can't protect most of the trade.
Is there any reason why Lepidus can't try settling veterans on land outside Italy, which would ease a lot of problems inside the peninsula? Although it could well mean more unrest from locals wherever the land was taken from.
Lepidus has definitely drawn the short straw, both in terms of having to deal with Sextus and his allies and also the fairly clear contempt he's being shown by Antony.
The latter is taking a risk heading further east and leaving the republicans still in such power at sea and hence threatening Rome. If he's really intending to settle matters with the Parthians before that's sorted out this is going to be difficult.
With Octavius dead what's happen to Aggrippa? He was I think the primary naval leader who ultimately defeated Sextus. Where does his loyalties now lie?
Steve
Given the naval dominance of Sextus's forces how did Lepidus get to the Balkans and then bring a sizeable force back to Italy? Or is it the case that the main fleet/army can get through but the Csearians [or whatever their called] can't protect most of the trade.
Is there any reason why Lepidus can't try settling veterans on land outside Italy, which would ease a lot of problems inside the peninsula? Although it could well mean more unrest from locals wherever the land was taken from.
Lepidus has definitely drawn the short straw, both in terms of having to deal with Sextus and his allies and also the fairly clear contempt he's being shown by Antony.
The latter is taking a risk heading further east and leaving the republicans still in such power at sea and hence threatening Rome. If he's really intending to settle matters with the Parthians before that's sorted out this is going to be difficult.
With Octavius dead what's happen to Aggrippa? He was I think the primary naval leader who ultimately defeated Sextus. Where does his loyalties now lie?
Steve
Vergil's life is going as per OTL so far. Lepidus's policy is similar to that of Octavian's OTL for land confiscation. There really wasn't much choice, so Vergil still lost his possessions.
Well OTL, Octavian was able to get back to Italy with the similar sized forces, possibly over the land route but I'm not sure. But I don't imagine it would have been that hard for Lepidus himself to get on a small fast ship over to Dyrrachium.
My best guess is that the soldiers were promised to be settled in Italy. I was a little surprised at this as well when Octavian had a similar problem OTL, and couldn't seem to find an agreed upon reason for it. So I just decided to play it safe and stick to Italy. It's worse for Lepidus though, because he lacks in everything Octavian had.
Yes, his position is certainly unenviable.
Well right now what few repubicans are left in the senate (many aren't in Rome due to dying in the proscriptions or fleeing to Sextus Pompey) are uneasy about taking on Antony who's more powerful than he was OTL. However, there's no Octavian to keep things in order in Italy TTL, so things could rapidly spin out of control and Antony could face a serious problem if Lepidus can't get things together.
I imagine he attached himself to Antony. The whole reason for his success was almost solely thanks to being a great friend with Octavian. He doesn't have any political marriage connections yet (they came after Philippi) so as of now, advancing his career is going to be difficult.
Deleted member 67076
Good. I have to say the quality on this one is better than the first version.
Thanks, that's what I was hoping.
Also revert =everything . My phone is not in a cooperative mood.
Here's a little different style of update. I don't plan on doing it much, as I am not very good with dialogue.
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Marcus Tullius Cicero was alarmed at the lack of long term planning and ambition that Sextus Pompeius had. He seemed to not be thinking things through and looking at the long term effects.
“What is it exactly you wish to accomplish by starving Rome?” he asked as the two men reclined on the couch for dinner.
“My goal,” he paused as took a sip of wine, “is to restore my father’s good name and regain my family’s honor.”
Cicero winced. The young man was brilliant and always stood by his word. He could play the propaganda game with the best of them, but Sextus seemed to have no have not the slightest idea of what exactly he was attempting to achieve. Sighing, Cicero decided he would have to give him a lesson in the realm of political reality.
“And how do you plan to achieve that?” Cicero challenged. “I suppose you assume that eventually by starving Rome, you can get Antonius to come to negotiate. Then you can finally have a legal position in the empire again, without ever having to worry about being backstabbed the second Antonius gets the chance?”
“I suppose I didn’t think it through…” Sextus attempted to explain before Cicero cut him off.
“Yes yes yes, that much is clear. If an offer arrived from Antonius today, with him legally recognizing you as governor of the territories under your control, you would accept them in an instant would you not?” Cicero paused to allow Sextus to answer, but he seemed at a loss for words, and remained silent.
Taking this as a yes, Cicero poured it on. He would need to be harsh now if he hoped to make progress. “You would not even bother to take a step back and look at what more you could gain. Antonius would never even contemplate such an agreement unless his position was so weak, and yours so strong, that he could not afford to continue to wage war against your forces”. He took a moment for that to sink in, then continued,
“Politics is a game, and those who do not understand the game will always lose, no matter how successful they may be. Your father, for all his greatness, never fully grasped politics, and payed with his life for it.” At the mention of criticism of his father, Pompeius attempted to protest, but Cicero simply ignored him and kept on going.
Referring back to the hypothetical offer from Antonius, Cicero continued, “Instead of accepting the offer right away, press for more concessions. Antonius will betray you the moment he believes he is in the stronger position. Not only is it in his nature to plot and scheme behind your back, it would make sense politically for him to remove a clear enemy to the Caesarions as soon as he could The more concessions you receive, the stronger a position you will be to counter Antonius and make him think twice about turning on you. I’m a republican to my core Pompeius, but if only to let you recognize how powerful of a position you are in, I admit that you can rule the entire Roman world one day if you really wanted to.”
With that, Cicero ended his rant, watching hopefully as Pompeius took a moment to let everything sink in. There was a long and silent pause, only broken by Cicero Minor announcing he was getting another glass of wine. Cicero began to wonder if he had gone too far by criticizing his father, until Pompeius finally opened his mouth.
“You make a good point my good friend.” Pompeius said as a smile at last crept across his face. “I admit, prior to this dinner, I would have accepted an offer like the one you mentioned from Antonius without much hesitation. In truth, Menodorus [1] has been telling me much of the same as you have here, but I have been dismissing most of it up until now.”
He stood up and gestured for the slave to clean up the meal, announcing, “Very well then, it is getting late. I would not want you two to have to travel back in the dark.”
Leading Cicero and his son through the atrium and to the vestibule, Pompeius added, “You lived up to your reputation Cicero. I promise to take some time to re-think what I wish to accomplish.”
Cicero allowed for a smile, and the three men exchanged goodbyes. As he departed, Cicero did not know whether to feel satisfied or worried. He wondered if he had just unintentionally made sure the republic would be sealed to a fate of being confined to the dustbin of history.
[1] Otherwise known as Maenas
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Chapter V: The Ambitions of Magnus Pius
Marcus Tullius Cicero was alarmed at the lack of long term planning and ambition that Sextus Pompeius had. He seemed to not be thinking things through and looking at the long term effects.
“What is it exactly you wish to accomplish by starving Rome?” he asked as the two men reclined on the couch for dinner.
“My goal,” he paused as took a sip of wine, “is to restore my father’s good name and regain my family’s honor.”
Cicero winced. The young man was brilliant and always stood by his word. He could play the propaganda game with the best of them, but Sextus seemed to have no have not the slightest idea of what exactly he was attempting to achieve. Sighing, Cicero decided he would have to give him a lesson in the realm of political reality.
“And how do you plan to achieve that?” Cicero challenged. “I suppose you assume that eventually by starving Rome, you can get Antonius to come to negotiate. Then you can finally have a legal position in the empire again, without ever having to worry about being backstabbed the second Antonius gets the chance?”
“I suppose I didn’t think it through…” Sextus attempted to explain before Cicero cut him off.
“Yes yes yes, that much is clear. If an offer arrived from Antonius today, with him legally recognizing you as governor of the territories under your control, you would accept them in an instant would you not?” Cicero paused to allow Sextus to answer, but he seemed at a loss for words, and remained silent.
Taking this as a yes, Cicero poured it on. He would need to be harsh now if he hoped to make progress. “You would not even bother to take a step back and look at what more you could gain. Antonius would never even contemplate such an agreement unless his position was so weak, and yours so strong, that he could not afford to continue to wage war against your forces”. He took a moment for that to sink in, then continued,
“Politics is a game, and those who do not understand the game will always lose, no matter how successful they may be. Your father, for all his greatness, never fully grasped politics, and payed with his life for it.” At the mention of criticism of his father, Pompeius attempted to protest, but Cicero simply ignored him and kept on going.
Referring back to the hypothetical offer from Antonius, Cicero continued, “Instead of accepting the offer right away, press for more concessions. Antonius will betray you the moment he believes he is in the stronger position. Not only is it in his nature to plot and scheme behind your back, it would make sense politically for him to remove a clear enemy to the Caesarions as soon as he could The more concessions you receive, the stronger a position you will be to counter Antonius and make him think twice about turning on you. I’m a republican to my core Pompeius, but if only to let you recognize how powerful of a position you are in, I admit that you can rule the entire Roman world one day if you really wanted to.”
With that, Cicero ended his rant, watching hopefully as Pompeius took a moment to let everything sink in. There was a long and silent pause, only broken by Cicero Minor announcing he was getting another glass of wine. Cicero began to wonder if he had gone too far by criticizing his father, until Pompeius finally opened his mouth.
“You make a good point my good friend.” Pompeius said as a smile at last crept across his face. “I admit, prior to this dinner, I would have accepted an offer like the one you mentioned from Antonius without much hesitation. In truth, Menodorus [1] has been telling me much of the same as you have here, but I have been dismissing most of it up until now.”
He stood up and gestured for the slave to clean up the meal, announcing, “Very well then, it is getting late. I would not want you two to have to travel back in the dark.”
Leading Cicero and his son through the atrium and to the vestibule, Pompeius added, “You lived up to your reputation Cicero. I promise to take some time to re-think what I wish to accomplish.”
Cicero allowed for a smile, and the three men exchanged goodbyes. As he departed, Cicero did not know whether to feel satisfied or worried. He wondered if he had just unintentionally made sure the republic would be sealed to a fate of being confined to the dustbin of history.
[1] Otherwise known as Maenas
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slydessertfox
Good chapter. I think you're pretty good at dialogue.
Was Sextus that naive politically? It sounds astonishing but then could well fit in with his ultimate failure.
Also like the idea of Cicero stepping in to offer advice and wondering afterwards if he has finished off the last hope of the republic. I think that would be wrong as if Sextus doesn't get help Antonuis will win and the republic [which is probably doomed anyway] won't survive.
A couple of points/queries:
a) You have two [1] markers but only one actual footnote. Suspect it refers to the 2nd of the markers?
b) I don't get the title of the chapter? Is it some alternative name for Sextus?
Steve
Good chapter. I think you're pretty good at dialogue.
Was Sextus that naive politically? It sounds astonishing but then could well fit in with his ultimate failure.
Also like the idea of Cicero stepping in to offer advice and wondering afterwards if he has finished off the last hope of the republic. I think that would be wrong as if Sextus doesn't get help Antonuis will win and the republic [which is probably doomed anyway] won't survive.
A couple of points/queries:
a) You have two [1] markers but only one actual footnote. Suspect it refers to the 2nd of the markers?
b) I don't get the title of the chapter? Is it some alternative name for Sextus?
Steve
Well, it seems natural that Cicero pushed Sextus because of his anger towards Antony, but indeed with an Italy so instable, the son of Pompey should be more determined than OTL...
However, It's strange that Spain, traditional Pompeian stronghold, didn't revolt yet... With Antony in the East and Lepidus incapable to hold the West, the Iberian peninsula could pass almost easily in the hands of Sextus...
However, It's strange that Spain, traditional Pompeian stronghold, didn't revolt yet... With Antony in the East and Lepidus incapable to hold the West, the Iberian peninsula could pass almost easily in the hands of Sextus...
RyuDrago
Don't forget the Pompeians in Spain have already been stomped a couple of times I think. [Once under Julius C and once under the 2nd Triumvirate]. However with control of the sea and the main enemy armies in the east it would be a good place to try and establish a larger base. Or possibly Africa 1st as that also secures a good resource base that is difficult for a land based enemy to reach.
Steve
Well Anthony Everitt claims Sextus lost because he failed to think things through. He wasn't naive per say-Sextus was great with propaganda, associating his father with Neptune, and then styling himself as the son of Neptune.
Yes, right now Cicero just wants to make sure anybody but Antony comes out on top. Sextus isn't completely adverse to dealing with Antony. He's just going to drive a harder bargain if he ever does come to the table.
Ah yes, that was a mistake thanks for pointing that out.
An example would be at the dinner after the treaty of misenum, when Menodorus told Sextus he could kill Antony and Octavian right there and make him master of the roman world, and sextus replied that he should have done it without telling him, because he never goes back on his word.
The treaty of Misenum itself (which only legally recognized what Sextus already controlled) is a good example of his lack of thinking things through.
Well Sextus's name was before his father's death: Sextus Pompeius Magnus. After his father's death he added the agnomen: Pius (dutiful/loyal) to show he was loyal to his father's memory.
Indeed.
I'll have to look into that. Honestly though, as Steve pointed out, the Pompeians have been crushed twice in Spain by Caesar, and the second time involved Labienus, Sextus, and Gnaeus raising legions themselves there.
Yes, many Romans feel the same way....
Thank you for pointing that out. You are correct, Pompeius should be replaced by Antonius.
In truth, it was Caesar who fought twice in Spain, (Ilipa and then Munda), and Spain was apparently pacificated. In OTL until Philippi Spain was under control of Lepidus (he raised levies in the area), and without Octavian ITTL it should be remain under its control, but in a so instable situation a defection isn't so impossible... After all Spain had a long story of defections against the central power...
Africa? Well, surely it could be good to control the grain supplies here located, but it isn't so plenty in manpower (unless to search an alliance with the Moors and what remained of Numidia).
Would you happen to have any idea of who Lepidus placed to govern the provinces in Spain for him?
This however doesn't mean necessarily Lepidus could be able to destroy any residual opposition, considering after the victory Caesar ( who pratically kept Spain only from 45 BC) adopted a policy of general clemency, and we are talking of a post-Caesar TL where the triumvir without Octavian had the task to govern the entire West... considering that in OTL he wasn't able to impose himself in the successive divisions of the Republic, it's plausible to say that Spain, as the most far western region, which was in Cesarian hands for neither ten years, could easily slip away from him in favor of Sextus...
Also, I'm not entirely secure about the situation in Gallia Comata...
Well I was toying with the idea of the governor Lepidus put in place defecting.
slydessertfox
Thanks for clarifying about the chapter name. Knew Pompey was known as 'the Great' but didn't realise this carried on into Sextus's name.
I suspect Spain or another region is unlikely to defect to Sextus for the moment. He's causing some problems for Italy but could be viewed as little more than a powerful pirate at the moment. Two crushing defeat in Spain and two more in Greece/Thrace will have damped support for the anti-Caesarian forces and there will be the fear that Antonius, an experienced warrior with strong support amongst the veteran legions will turn up and stomp on any new revolt. This might change if Antonius comes a cropper in the east, as he might with the Parthians, or gets diverted in Egypt. However I think Sextus needs to have some significant successes himself before he can expect many to rally around either his name or [whatever] his cause is.
Don't think anyone's mentioned the thread title yet. However assuming that at some point its going to be highly relevent and possibly a character is going to have to decide to sacrifice someone they like/respect to improve their changes of gaining control of Rome?
Steve
Thanks for clarifying about the chapter name. Knew Pompey was known as 'the Great' but didn't realise this carried on into Sextus's name.
I suspect Spain or another region is unlikely to defect to Sextus for the moment. He's causing some problems for Italy but could be viewed as little more than a powerful pirate at the moment. Two crushing defeat in Spain and two more in Greece/Thrace will have damped support for the anti-Caesarian forces and there will be the fear that Antonius, an experienced warrior with strong support amongst the veteran legions will turn up and stomp on any new revolt. This might change if Antonius comes a cropper in the east, as he might with the Parthians, or gets diverted in Egypt.
However I think Sextus needs to have some significant successes himself before he can expect many to rally around either his name or [whatever] his cause is.Don't think anyone's mentioned the thread title yet. However assuming that at some point its going to be highly relevent and possibly a character is going to have to decide to sacrifice someone they like/respect to improve their changes of gaining control of Rome?
Steve
I forgot to mention it, but the title comes from the death of Octavian at Philippi.