Is OTL the best case scenerio for the USA?

Baskilisk

Banned
Eh, I think OTL turned out very well for the USA - it's history already reads like an epic poem.

But in any case, the only way I could think that America really had a chance to be "better" is if they gained Canada post 1918 peacefully. I usually justify this in my head with a USA-gets-Newfoundland-and-Labrador-then-absorbs-Canada-and-gets-a-bit-more-liberal scenario. *shameless plug* Like in my timeline.
 
Here's a cool idea. WI the US annexed Hawaii and Formosa in 1854? And this led to the US seizing all of Spain's Pacific possessions in addition too the Philippines. Japan then becomes an Asian power rather than a Pacific power. They stay allied to Britain and later the US. The Deming revolution doesn't happen in Japan but it does in the US.
 
Eh, I think OTL turned out very well for the USA - it's history already reads like an epic poem.

.


I hope this isn't one of those depressing epic poems - you know, those where greed and hubris in the end destroy the great hero. :(

Bruce
 
Here's a cool idea. WI the US annexed Hawaii and Formosa in 1854? And this led to the US seizing all of Spain's Pacific possessions in addition too the Philippines. Japan then becomes an Asian power rather than a Pacific power. They stay allied to Britain and later the US. The Deming revolution doesn't happen in Japan but it does in the US.

I'm sorry but the United States was not in a position to wildly annex Hawaii and Formosa in 1854, maybe later in the 19th Century but not then. For one thing, the British would not be pleased at all and probably go to war against the US.
 
You sure general mung? I personally don't see why Britain would intervene over Formosa or Taiwan. Why Britain didn't go to war to protect Mexico or over any number of border disputes between BNA and the US. I honestly don't see Britain fighting a expensive war over two relatively unimportant islands.
 
You sure general mung? I personally don't see why Britain would intervene over Formosa or Taiwan. Why Britain didn't go to war to protect Mexico or over any number of border disputes between BNA and the US. I honestly don't see Britain fighting a expensive war over two relatively unimportant islands.

Relatively unimportant? :eek:
 
US Hawaii was important to the US because it could be used to attack the west coast. Have you ever wondered why britain didn't claim Hawaii? They had the opportunity. Look at Hawaii in relation to Britains other Asiatic and Pacific territories. Sure if Britain wants to threaten the US (which in reality would going against British policy for most of the 19th century)then Hawaii makes sense otherwise its same as OTL. Britain also ignored Formosa until the Japanese gobbled it up.
 
US Hawaii was important to the US because it could be used to attack the west coast. Have you ever wondered why britain didn't claim Hawaii? They had the opportunity. Look at Hawaii in relation to Britains other Asiatic and Pacific territories. Sure if Britain wants to threaten the US (which in reality would going against British policy for most of the 19th century)then Hawaii makes sense otherwise its same as OTL. Britain also ignored Formosa until the Japanese gobbled it up.

Well China was pretty much Britain's preserve during the 1850s and the Japanese had propotionally far more power against Britain in 1890s then did the US against Britain in the 1850s.
 
Thats not even remotely accurate. The US could easily invade Canada in the 1850's and raid Britain's commerce Japan on the other hand had no navy or even modern weapons for that matter(Japan had only been opened to foreign trade in 1853). And China wasn't a British preserve, as Portugal and France both had access to Chinese markets.
 
Thats not even remotely accurate. The US could easily invade Canada in the 1850's and raid Britain's commerce

No that would have brought Britain's wrath, they were easily the most powerful country on the planet then-why else did the US back down over the Trent incident?
 
Because the US was already involved in its own Civil War. Britain was the most powerful nation and yes had they wanted to keep the US out of China they could have, but Britain already had her sphere of influence as did Portugal and France. I don't see Britain forcing the US out of Hawaii or Formosa even during the Civil War.
 
US Hawaii was important to the US because it could be used to attack the west coast. Have you ever wondered why britain didn't claim Hawaii? They had the opportunity. Look at Hawaii in relation to Britains other Asiatic and Pacific territories. Sure if Britain wants to threaten the US (which in reality would going against British policy for most of the 19th century)then Hawaii makes sense otherwise its same as OTL. Britain also ignored Formosa until the Japanese gobbled it up.

Hawai'i is very much off the major sailing routes, until steamships become the rule it had no strategic value. Thus any desire on Americas part pre 1860s is really silly, not to mention it would be a pretty hard whipping up justification without a prior period of inflitration and settlement by Americans which push plausible dates back even further.

Plus remember that before transcontinential railroads and significant west coast infrastructure Hawai'i and Taiwan are easier to get to from Europe and closer to European power centres than they are American.

As to the OP, IMO the US could have done 'better' on the metrics of size, power, and pleasentness (but maybe not all at once), but the OTL US is already well on the lucky side of the gaussian curve of likely outcomes.
 
Nugax said:
Hawai'i is very much off the major sailing routes, until steamships become the rule it had no strategic value. Thus any desire on Americas part pre 1860s is really silly, not to mention it would be a pretty hard whipping up justification without a prior period of inflitration and settlement by Americans which push plausible dates back even further.

Steamships were already in production at this point. Here's some background on Perry's expedition

http://books.google.com/books?id=tq...wtyBAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Nugax said:
Plus remember that before transcontinential railroads and significant west coast infrastructure Hawai'i and Taiwan are easier to get to from Europe and closer to European power centres than they are American.

Americans didn't have much difficulty getting to China or India during this period in OTL.

Nugax said:
As to the OP, IMO the US could have done 'better' on the metrics of size, power, and pleasentness (but maybe not all at once), but the OTL US is already well on the lucky side of the gaussian curve of likely outcomes.

Very true:D
 
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