Is Jewish North Africa possible in a TL without Islam?

[InMediasRes]

Recently, I read about the Berber warrior queen Dihya, and it made me think about a Jewish North Africa, specifically in a timeline where a figure like her wouldn't have to fend of Muslim invaders, as those have been butterflied away earlier.

Granted the historicity of her Jewishness is debatable, but it looks like there were some Jewish Berber tribes around, even if their version of Judaism might vary significantly from the original. Let's say some warlord of a Jewish tribe is so successful that he unites and converts several tribes under him and eventually manages to control large parts of North Africa, subjugating various local Romance African and possibly remaining Vandal populations. Is such a scenario completely unrealistic?

If it is somewhat realistic, how do you think a Jewish majority North Africa would fair surrounded by a Christian dominated Europe and Middle East? Could it survive in the long-term? Attract the Jewish diaspora from the rest of the Mediterranean world? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts!

 

[Max Sinister]

This sounds like you want all of North Africa Jewish, which is kinda ASBish. Admittedly, so'd be any north African state trying to rule all of it. One single surviving Jewish state, preferably in the mountains, maybe...

 

[InMediasRes]

This sounds like you want all of North Africa Jewish, which is kinda ASBish. Admittedly, so'd be any north African state trying to rule all of it. One single surviving Jewish state, preferably in the mountains, maybe...

Not necessarily all of it, though I admit my phrasing might imply that. But even if all of it were Jewish, it wouldn't necessarily have to be under a single state. My original idea had Judaism become the popular and eventual dominant religion among the Berber population, who eventually rule most of North Africa West of Carthage or Hippo Regius in various splintered states. With the original Berbers making up the ruling military elite and most of the common folk, while remaining African Romance speakers and immigrating Jewish people from around the Mediterranean make up a significant part of the urban population.

But it's just a half-baked idea I had when i thought about the region that is tangentially related to a Late Antiquity TL I have been contemplating. Just wanted to test the waters whether the forum would think it's a completely insane idea. I guess in the end it the execution and how exactly it comes to pass matters a lot in how people evaluate it.

 

[Kirook]

The thing about Judaism is that it’s a non-evangelizing faith with a relatively insular community. Those factors make it pretty difficult to spread and gain converts, especially through a region as large as North Africa. It might be able to happen if one or two powerful North African rulers converted for some reason, though.

 

[Arkenfolm]

A significant amount of Berbers were Christian, including those in remote areas, at least judging by the numbers of bishoprics recorded there. Odds are instead of Judaism you'd have a more syncretic approach mixing Christianity (of any and all sorts), Judaism, and native Berber religion.

 

[Silver01]

Judaiaim is not an Evangelical religion as Christianity or Islam

Also if no Muslim invasion happens ( since they are butterflied)
And she tried to invade king kusaila and the Byzantine ruler of north Africa would probably defeat her

 

[TachfineAlMansour]

Recently, I read about the Berber warrior queen Dihya, and it made me think about a Jewish North Africa, specifically in a timeline where a figure like her wouldn't have to fend of Muslim invaders, as those have been butterflied away earlier.

Granted the historicity of her Jewishness is debatable, but it looks like there were some Jewish Berber tribes around, even if their version of Judaism might vary significantly from the original. Let's say some warlord of a Jewish tribe is so successful that he unites and converts several tribes under him and eventually manages to control large parts of North Africa, subjugating various local Romance African and possibly remaining Vandal populations. Is such a scenario completely unrealistic?

If it is somewhat realistic, how do you think a Jewish majority North Africa would fair surrounded by a Christian dominated Europe and Middle East? Could it survive in the long-term? Attract the Jewish diaspora from the rest of the Mediterranean world? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts!

Depends on what you want, a state the size medieval Emirate of Tlemcen would be possible, but needs some proselyting, all of NA, I don't think so. How they would survive is another question, admitting that the umayyads like them (early muslim caliphate is said to have been on good terms with the aksumite, so if they don't oppose them, no problems), the muslims could fend off byzantines, and visigoths are currently in a civil war so your beta-israel has some decades before it to establish a state. Without the arabs bringing goats and pushing the natives to the mountains, I think the region with do better in term of agriculture than OTL, with some luck, they could stay.

 

[Philip]

Judaiaim is not an Evangelical religion as Christianity or Islam

Some flavors have been, and there is no reason it could not be again.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Christianity will dominate the region

 

[Silver01]

Some flavors have been, and there is no reason it could be again.

Yeah. But by this point the berbers ( at least the ones of the north where chirstian
Why would they convert to judaisim?
Post axial age religion vs another does not work
In the case of the Islam it did but that was a special case that I doudt judaisim could do
Since it would not make sense

And like I said if kusaila Is still alive
The berber queen will not last long on he throne

 

[Silver01]

Christianity will dominate the region

yeah but it would be many types of chirstians and many heretic sects

 

[Arkenfolm]

yeah but it would be many types of chirstians and many heretic sects

The tendency of North Africans/Berbers toward heresy is overstated. Remember, St. Augustine himself was a Berber. There's no reason that the Berbers will necessarily challenge the Church as long as their rural traditions are ignored (the same sort found in Italy, France, etc. to this day). And even if the Church does take issue with something, there's a long way to go before they decide to break from the Church and accept permanent excommunication. As for less Christianized lands, like those deeper in the Atlas or in modern Morocco, they'd end up converted in time like Germania was. Unless Christianity fragments or the Berbers produce their own Muhammad figure (which isn't totally impossible, considering the era), then North Africa will stay Catholic.

What you're describing is more likely to be the case with West Africa, which as a quite remote realm by European standards, could easily wind up with odd sorts of Christianity.

 

[Silver01]

The tendency of North Africans/Berbers toward heresy is overstated. Remember, St. Augustine himself was a Berber. There's no reason that the Berbers will necessarily challenge the Church as long as their rural traditions are ignored (the same sort found in Italy, France, etc. to this day). And even if the Church does take issue with something, there's a long way to go before they decide to break from the Church and accept permanent excommunication. As for less Christianized lands, like those deeper in the Atlas or in modern Morocco, they'd end up converted in time like Germania was. Unless Christianity fragments or the Berbers produce their own Muhammad figure (which isn't totally impossible, considering the era), then North Africa will stay Catholic.

What you're describing is more likely to be the case with West Africa, which as a quite remote realm by European standards, could easily wind up with odd sorts of Christianity.

I was referring to that part of affica ie modern day morroco and Algeria
But now that you mention it the shahel kingdoms could follow a hertical sect
I say it would be heretical ( ie morroco and Algeria) but over the years would be come Catholic kinda like gothic tribes who over time left arianisim for catholisim

 

[Arkenfolm]

I was referring to that part of affica ie modern day morroco and Algeria

"Algeria" is a huge area. In Roman times, the coastal areas were thoroughly Romanised (in major cities, Punic and Latin was spoken, with Latin dominating the later you get) while the interior in the Atlas had the least amount of Roman culture, although it was always comparable to Germania at a minimum. Regardless, many bishoprics existed in North Africa, and the Archbishop in Carthage tended to be looked to as a spiritual leader. St. Cyprian was massively influential, and into the 11th century festivals attributed to his cult were still celebrated in Carthage. St. Augustine of Hippo (Hippo Regius in that era was one of North Africa's foremost cities aside from Carthage) is perhaps even more influential on Christianity.

The incursion of Islam sent North Africa into even greater chaos than it already was in, but even a Berber North Africa would still find a powerbase in the Archbishop of Carthage (who OTL had an ally in the Pope in the many centuries of Islamic rule and the eventually extinction of local Christianity at the hands of the Almohads in the 12th century). Christian Berbers, if they fought back the Arabs in the 7th/8th century, would likely find the Archbishop of Carthage a very important figure both politically and spiritually, and the Archbishop can help them gain support elsewhere in Christianity. Thus, in addition to the still existing bishoprics in Mauretania/Numidia (several dozen), there's even less of an incentive to support a heresy. Any heresy IMO needs to be akin to the rise of Islam--a charismatic leader and weak local rule which can help spread a sort of "Berber" Abrahamic faith which in this case would look a bit like the Christian version of the Barghawata faith (i.e. a unique version of the Bible and some Jewish and pagan influences). The main conflict I think will be the Archbishop of Carthage and his power versus the Pope--this is dictated by geography (see the Punic Wars), which will likely be decided by a weakened Pope giving the Archbishop of Carthage the position of Patriarch. One "interesting" aspect OTL denied us of is a continued rivalry between Carthage and Rome--you can expect a successor state of the Exarchate of Africa, the Vandal Kingdom, or a Romano-Berber state--based in Carthage--to come into conflict with the Pope over some secular interest. I think you'd see a tradition where Simon the Zealot (disciple of Jesus) is the founder of the See of Carthage (unlike OTL traditions, since TTL Carthage needs a stronger lineage)--tradition holds he is from Cana, and "Canaanite" concepts (terms etymologically related to "Canaanite" were used to refer to Punic speaking regions in Late Antiquity) could inform his cult in Carthage during Late Antiquity--plus in Islam, Simon the Zealot did preach in North Africa.

But now that you mention it the shahel kingdoms could follow a hertical sect
I say it would be heretical ( ie morroco and Algeria) but over the years would be come Catholic kinda like gothic tribes who over time left arianisim for catholisim

They already were Catholic, since Donatism slowly died in North Africa over the centuries. IOTL, the Vandals were unable to convert the locals to Arianism. So I think the North Africans--Africa, Numidia, and Numidia--will stay as Catholic as Iberia or southern France. Only the remote parts of the Atlas or the majority of Morocco has any reason to become heretical or stay pagan, and by the end of the 1st millennium they'll be dealt with by some Romano-Berber state.

The Sahel is a different matter, and we only need to look at the history of Islam there to see how a Christian Sahel might evolve.

 

[Silver01]

"Algeria" is a huge area. In Roman times, the coastal areas were thoroughly Romanised (in major cities, Punic and Latin was spoken, with Latin dominating the later you get) while the interior in the Atlas had the least amount of Roman culture, although it was always comparable to Germania at a minimum. Regardless, many bishoprics existed in North Africa, and the Archbishop in Carthage tended to be looked to as a spiritual leader. St. Cyprian was massively influential, and into the 11th century festivals attributed to his cult were still celebrated in Carthage. St. Augustine of Hippo (Hippo Regius in that era was one of North Africa's foremost cities aside from Carthage) is perhaps even more influential on Christianity.

The incursion of Islam sent North Africa into even greater chaos than it already was in, but even a Berber North Africa would still find a powerbase in the Archbishop of Carthage (who OTL had an ally in the Pope in the many centuries of Islamic rule and the eventually extinction of local Christianity at the hands of the Almohads in the 12th century). Christian Berbers, if they fought back the Arabs in the 7th/8th century, would likely find the Archbishop of Carthage a very important figure both politically and spiritually, and the Archbishop can help them gain support elsewhere in Christianity. Thus, in addition to the still existing bishoprics in Mauretania/Numidia (several dozen), there's even less of an incentive to support a heresy. Any heresy IMO needs to be akin to the rise of Islam--a charismatic leader and weak local rule which can help spread a sort of "Berber" Abrahamic faith which in this case would look a bit like the Christian version of the Barghawata faith (i.e. a unique version of the Bible and some Jewish and pagan influences). The main conflict I think will be the Archbishop of Carthage and his power versus the Pope--this is dictated by geography (see the Punic Wars), which will likely be decided by a weakened Pope giving the Archbishop of Carthage the position of Patriarch. One "interesting" aspect OTL denied us of is a continued rivalry between Carthage and Rome--you can expect a successor state of the Exarchate of Africa, the Vandal Kingdom, or a Romano-Berber state--based in Carthage--to come into conflict with the Pope over some secular interest. I think you'd see a tradition where Simon the Zealot (disciple of Jesus) is the founder of the See of Carthage (unlike OTL traditions, since TTL Carthage needs a stronger lineage)--tradition holds he is from Cana, and "Canaanite" concepts (terms etymologically related to "Canaanite" were used to refer to Punic speaking regions in Late Antiquity) could inform his cult in Carthage during Late Antiquity--plus in Islam, Simon the Zealot did preach in North Africa.

yeah this makes a lot of sense

They already were Catholic, since Donatism slowly died in North Africa over the centuries. IOTL, the Vandals were unable to convert the locals to Arianism. So I think the North Africans--Africa, Numidia, and Numidia--will stay as Catholic as Iberia or southern France. Only the remote parts of the Atlas or the majority of Morocco has any reason to become heretical or stay pagan, and by the end of the 1st millennium they'll be dealt with by some Romano-Berber state.

true

The Sahel is a different matter, and we only need to look at the history of Islam there to see how a Christian Sahel might evolve.

local peganisim fused with chirstianity

 

[Arkenfolm]

local peganisim fused with chirstianity

That's OTL Europe to various degrees, even in Italy. IIRC even a festival for St. Cyprian celebrated by Christians in Carthage well into Islamic times could have pagan roots (and into Late Antiquity, some nominally Christian figures in North Africa mention Ba'al--generic term for local gods--in their writings).

 

[Silver01]

That's OTL Europe to various degrees, even in Italy. IIRC even a festival for St. Cyprian celebrated by Christians in Carthage well into Islamic times could have pagan roots (and into Late Antiquity, some nominally Christian figures in North Africa mention Ba'al--generic term for local gods--in their writings).

yeah but in the shahel kingdoms that lasted for a very long time by ibn batuta ( he even mentions the non islamic things ) ie mid 14th century and it lasted longer