Is Japan taking over China really ASB?

It depends really.

First, what constitutes China; modern OTL China, China minust Tibet and Xinjiang etc.

Do you mean direct control, IE it being considered Japanese territory, or indirect control, IE China being de jure independent, but de facto controlled by Japan.

Without creating a new Sino-Japanese identity (the Chinese are'nt going to become Japanese and the Japanese are'nt going to become Chinese in large nubers), the best bet I think would be Japan annexing some of China diectly (a slighly larger Manchkou) and controlling the remainder of China as a partially autonomous puppet.
 

world

Banned
It's not ASB it's very easy achieved depending on the methods used and the actions of rival powers.
 
Well, WORLD, could you perhaps explain these methods for us? Or are they your secret? :D

Personally, I think it's ASB with a post-1900 POD, unless you add the proviso "for a very short time". Given Chinese national identity and Japanese racism and nationalism, the Japanese are simply not going to set up a form of regime the Chinese are going to tolerate. Only by truly genocidal methods carried out over an extended period are the Japanese going to be able to terrorize the Chinese into passivity (presumably after killing every literate person in the country), and that only works in an "evil fascist superpowers divide up the world" kinda scenario.

Now, something can be done with puppets, especially if they cover only part of the country and the rest of it is under a manifestly much more horrible regime...

Bruce
 
I did not say Japanese colonization of China would be like Japanese colonization of India per se. Just that colonization is not a takeover per se; lots of countries have been colonized, often for significant periods. But a complete take over seems difficult given that one would need to do things like eliminate Russia (which seems difficult), and other Western interests in Asia (also difficult). An earlier PoD is a different matter. Perhaps a radically different China (i.e. no "China?)"
 
It does look fairly ASB. Japan had to struggle against Chinese Nationalism and Anglo-American and Soviet support for China. The Soviet support was logical but the British seem to have been rather unrealistic in assuming that they could support Chinese Nationalism against Japan without it damaging their position in the Far East while the USA believed that China would be bound to turn to America for capital as soon as it was unified. What if during 1926-7 something prevents the split between the KMT and the CCP? Perhaps the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhongshan_Warship_Incident went wrong for Chiang and he was assassinated or at least forced from the KMT leadership. Up to 1927, the British and the USA were keener to resist Chinese Nationalism than Japanese such as Shidehara Kijuro. If Chinese Nationalism remains strongly and openly hostile to Anglo-American influence in China, Japan will have a much easier task. As well as not being opposed by Anglo-American influence (loans etc.), we might expect that the Japanese Navy will be forced to sign further treaties after the London Treaty and that Japan will built fewer and smaller ships, allowing them to field a larger and stronger army.
 

loughery111

Banned
Its like expecting Sweden to conquer Germany was historically. Like a mouse trying to swallow and elephant.

That is actually significantly more likely than Japan taking over China. Germany in the 30 Years' War did NOT have a unified national identity, nor did they have much loyalty to the princes who readily fed them into the meat grinder and hired mercenaries who then proceeded to rape and pillage those they were "defending".

Gustavus Adolf was nothing like the princes of the German states... a monarch he was, but he seems to have had a developed sense of duty and wanted a strong citizenry to support his crown and his military. Now, obviously, he could not have taken all of Germany militarily, and the center of his empire, had he managed to live and secure northern Germany, would have shifted towards Germany and away from Sweden... but it would have been a cohesive nation with a Swedish identity. Probably.

I did not say Japanese colonization of China would be like Japanese colonization of India per se. Just that colonization is not a takeover per se; lots of countries have been colonized, often for significant periods. But a complete take over seems difficult given that one would need to do things like eliminate Russia (which seems difficult), and other Western interests in Asia (also difficult). An earlier PoD is a different matter. Perhaps a radically different China (i.e. no "China?)"

I doubt Japan could even have colonized China for longer than it did in OTL, not without POD's that remove conflict with both Russia and the United States. Neither was prepared to allow Japan to own China, and either could have crushed Japan on its own. Even if the US never became involved in WWII, the Soviets would have turned east after crushing Germany and at least kicked the Japanese off the mainland. Not to mention that China arguably could have won the 2nd Sino-Japanese War without direct military intervention by either power, through sheer weight of population and clandestine supply efforts by other countries. It just would have taken 10 years longer than OTL.
 

DAMIENEVIL

Banned
The Japanese would of had to be a really different imperial ruler then they were in OTL to do this.

There were people in china that supported the Japanese invasion Japan could have used these people to puppet the nation and then as radio and other things become more common in the empire they would have slowly turned the people more Japanese it would have been a fusion of Japanese Imperial culture and chinese local culture but over time with radio Television they could have culturally coopted the chinse Much like how the Communist did in china.

Yes it would have taken time but they could have done it that way and add japanese colonists as the base for the imperial ruling.
 
Here's an idea:
Instead of actively conquering China, Japan paints itself as cleansing Asia of Westerners by challenging control of the concessions and whatnot. Then it can supply arms to the CCP and various warlords to screw up the GMD even more than in OTL, and then gradually start "supporting" the GMD with its own troops. It could turn Nationalist China into a weak ally to leech economic gain from in exchange for military support, and stay a major regional power.

I don't know if this fulfills the requirement though, since China is still rather independent in this scenario. I just can't see how Japan would really be able to swallow all of China without subjecting itself to a MegaNam situation. Sure, the IJA might destroy the NRA, but it would only control China for a few years at best.
 
Here's an idea:
Instead of actively conquering China, Japan paints itself as cleansing Asia of Westerners by challenging control of the concessions and whatnot. Then it can supply arms to the CCP and various warlords to screw up the GMD even more than in OTL, and then gradually start "supporting" the GMD with its own troops. It could turn Nationalist China into a weak ally to leech economic gain from in exchange for military support, and stay a major regional power.

Well, the Japanese certainly tried most of this. It didn't seem to work.

For instance? :confused:

Bruce

Wang Jingwei?
 
Pretty much. Given the level of antipathy between the CCP and GMD, it's a statement to how much the Chinese people hated Japan that the IJA could actually get the two to stop shooting at each other and shoot them instead.
 
Well, they could have attempted to divide China between the various warlords that existed and treated them as vassals, with the only area they have direct control over being the Shandong Peninsula, Shanghai, the area around Hong Kong and Macau, and Hainan.
 
Pretty much. Given the level of antipathy between the CCP and GMD, it's a statement to how much the Chinese people hated Japan that the IJA could actually get the two to stop shooting at each other and shoot them instead.

Well, let's not give the Japanese all the credit. After all, Zhang Xueliang actually had to kidnap Jiang Jieshi to get the Second United Front going.

And I'll just add my voice to the chorus of those saying that yes, it's ASB. Even if everything went gloriously right for the Japanese (It's a Yamato Miracle!) and they did somehow conquer most of China, it would last about three weeks. Especially given Japan's self-defeating imperial strategy ("let's have a contest to see who can cut off more heads in a day!"), there will be continual resistance, and Japan doesn't have the manpower, and China is a homogeneous polity that has been more-or-less united for the better part of two thousand years, and so on and so forth. The bottom line is that it doesn't work.
 
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