Is it possible that Crete was better defended in 1941?

So Barbarossa is delayed till early 1942?

this is a potential outcome

Hitler was VERY sensitive about any possible threat to Ploesti

in OTL even with Crete and the Crimea in German hands Hitler still kept over 100 fighter aircraft; a full strength flak division AND a full strength mechanized infantry division (in case of allied parachute assault to sabotage the fields) at Ploesti

if there where British bombers within range at Crete; he would want to do something to contain the threat; even if renewed invasion was out of the question; he might open up Malta or greater levels of bombardment on the island to keep it beaten down

supplying crete sucks for the british... there are massive german air bases less than 100 miles away; and all the good ports where you can load the infrastructure material and fuel for a 4 engine bombing force are on the north side of the island; so they would take VERY heavy shipping losses and tie up lots of escorts to provide close cover
 
If memory serves, the British could have won the battle for Crete quite easily had Freyburg been prepared to release powerful formations that were tied up defending coastal areas. My memory is a little hazy of the exact ins and outs, but it was something to do with Freyburg misunderstanding the Enigma encrypts that were forwarded to him. He believed that the airborne landings were a diversion set against a more traditional seaborne landing.

In short, quick deceisive action would have resulted in a British victory. Unforunately, this was a quality definitly lacking in the British Army at this stage of the war.

Regards

Lord I.
 
All the British needed was one more active battalion commander where the Germans actually captured an air strip and began pouring in reinforcements and the entire invasion might have come apart.

The British holding Crete will mean Germany has to spend two or three divisions garrisoning the Aegean isles lest the British start expanding 'Free Greece' and a significant increase in the Luftwaffe presence.
 
The British holding Crete will mean Germany has to spend two or three divisions garrisoning the Aegean isles lest the British start expanding 'Free Greece' and a significant increase in the Luftwaffe presence.

Where would those divisions and aircraft come from, given OTL perspective? The Germans could reduce air defenses in North-West Europe (not likely), divert from Barbarossa, or tell the Italians to make do in Africa with what they've got, from what I can see.

Given that the whole Crete debacle can be blamed on the Italians and their failure of a war with Greece, might the last option seem most palatable?
 
Not likely. The last means the collapse of Italian North Africa and a major improvement of the British position in the Mediterranean, which is not what Hitler wants. And what does French North Africa do when the US enters the war if the invasion of Sicily is already in the final stages?
 
No, Barbarossa will not be delayed. The invasion of the Soviet Union doesn't depend on whether some island in the Mediterranean is in German hands or not. Germany made sure that any preparations for Mercury would not interfere with Barbarossa.

The high casualties of the Crete operation was enough that Hitler never ordered another major airborne offensive by Germany (as opposed to much smaller commando style operations). In this scenario, with the airborne invasion having failed - which means almost 100% casualties or prisoners, all elite troops too (I think it would be almost impossible for a successful evacuation of Crete by German troops) - there is no way Hitler is going to order another attack. It's too high of a risk, especially once the element of surprise is lost.

Hitler might seek another way to neutralize Crete, but he won't be ordering another attack unless huge changes in the Mediterranean theatre happens (like if Rommel wins the Battle of El-Alemein and is able to take Alexandria and Suez).

Having Crete under allied control isnt a liability for Hitler? I mean that through Crete British Navy can harass Rommel's reinforcements plus he is exposed ro raids in oilfields... It would be a thorn in his side...
 
Having Crete under allied control isnt a liability for Hitler? I mean that through Crete British Navy can harass Rommel's reinforcements plus he is exposed ro raids in oilfields... It would be a thorn in his side...

As others have stated, it isn't as clear cut as this. Look at Malta for a good example of what would likely happen to Crete- heavy air interdiction of inbound convoys, regular bombing of airfields to suppress opposition etc. To become an effective offensive base, the British would first have to :
  1. establish the infrastructure necessary to support at least a couple squadrons of modern fighters (more likely about 4-6)
  2. get these squadrons to airfields on the Islands, including pilots, ground crew etc
  3. Make sure that the planes aren't wiped out within 48 hours, as happened to one resupply effort to Malta
  4. Establish co-ordinated air defence of the island, particularly of the ports and airfields, capable of at least contesting the local airspace, if not winning outight air supremacy.
  5. Bring in convoys of the heavy equipment needed to support the bomber force that is due to attack Ploesti
  6. Start operations, and maintain them for as long as is necessary to achieve significant results against the target
Realistically, it would be hard for the RAF to get a successful fighter force established on Crete, let alone a worthwhile bomber force.

Having said that, if the airborne assault fails (as it so nearly did in real life) and the seaborne invasion is wiped out (as it was in real life), what other options does Hitler have? Barbarossa remains the absolute priority, and even if it wasn't, there aren't sufficient airborne troops for another assault, nor are there transport planes to carry them- they are all needed in the East. Most likely scenario is that Crete becomes the Eastern Med equivalent of Malta- tenuously held by the British in the face of aerial assault.
 
I see the UK putting enough troops in Crete to keep the Germans out and have them worry about it after the failed invasion. With everything going on in the Western Desert the British would not send anything more than the bare minimum there to keep it viable.

Maybe run a raid from Egypt to reach Ploesti just to keep them focused on Crete and let other areas alone.


Crete would be used as a Trojan Horse to keep Hitler looking toward the Balkans. It would be easier to make them think the real invasion is not Italy but Greece.
 
I still believe that Hitler wouldnt risk to have Crete turned to an air/naval base for the allies... And certainly Italian navy was badly damaged trying to contain British navy so he couldnt count on them in dealing with the situation... How about using Italian troops do the dirty job in Crete while Germans provided air support and transport?
 
I still believe that Hitler wouldnt risk to have Crete turned to an air/naval base for the allies... And certainly Italian navy was badly damaged trying to contain British navy so he couldnt count on them in dealing with the situation... How about using Italian troops do the dirty job in Crete while Germans provided air support and transport?

They wouldn't have had the transport, and I doubt Hitler would have had much faith in Italians to succeed where Germans had failed.
 

Hyperion

Banned
As Grimm says, that will take time. Lots of time.
Meanwhile, the Germans can interdict the build up with air and naval power, and also use their air power to try and suppress the Island so it doesn't become as big a threat. Not saying that will work, but it's what they were trying to do with Malta.

Crete is closer to British bases in Cyprus and Egypt, and the only place German or Italian aircraft can come from would be Greece.

Malta was wedged right in between Tunisia and Sicily, within range of Axis airfields from Sicily, North Africa, and the Italian mainland if need be.

As far as naval power, the Italians are the only naval power the Axis has in the Med. Germany could send U-boats, but not much else.

As for Crete specifically, the Italians tried to have a go against the British, and gave the British one of the biggest victories of the early years of the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cape_Matapan
 
Historically Crete was a very close run thing, the Germans suffered huge casualties.

There were 4 main factors that led to crete's defeat
1 Insufficient motor transport meaning that isolated German pockets could consolidate and coordinate while the British were responding.
2 Lack of air cover (given the fact that the invasion was an entirely airborne affair the consequences to not need to be explained
3 Poor leadership (Freyburg was obsessed with a seaborne invasion and the some of the leaders at batallion and brigade level were indecisive or unwilling to press offensives)
4 Lack of communications equipment. While there was a radio at Freyburg's HQ most of the defenders communication depended on telephone or runners.

How early a POD are we looking at?
I can think of some solutions that do not require huge changes in the strategic situation prior to the invasion.

Reinforce the motorpool with equipment captured in North Africa, allowing for a much quicker response to the capture of the Maleme airfield.

Decide to use Crete as a staging ground/stopoff point for the evacuation of Greece, reorganise units, take stock of exactly what was lost, maybe cobble together some units & equipment so they're immediately deployable elsewhere (Maybe Freyburg might requisition some badly needed equipment from evacuated troops:D).

A conference with the Greek defenders for better coordination of men & resources etc, perhaps delegating some (ideally all but this is unlikely) the task of defending the ports and towns to the Greek units, allowing for more defenders at the airfields.

Honestly, even the smallest change, even at the time of the invasion could altered the result in favour of the allies.

P.S. This scenario has been suggested so many times and nothing has ever come of it, it's high time a proper timeline was written.
 
Is it possible that Crete could be better defend and drive Germans back?

Answering the original question - yes.
The New Zealand battalion commander at Maleme, having lost contact with everyone and seen counterattacks either fail or not happen, believed his battalion was being surrounded and withdrew to avoid its destruction. This meant the Germans gained control of the airfield at Maleme, letting them fly in reinforcements. There's a VERY detailed write-up of it here:

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-22Ba-c2.html

If this battalion stays in place, the Germans can't reinforce by air and will likely be destroyed within days. As it was they lost a lot of valuable Ju52s flying in the reinforcements.
 
They wouldn't have had the transport, and I doubt Hitler would have had much faith in Italians to succeed where Germans had failed.

Indeed... After what happened in Albania Hitler had lost his faith in Italian military... But still he could use Italian troops to weaken the British and then launch a decisive attack with German soldiers...
 
Indeed... After what happened in Albania Hitler had lost his faith in Italian military... But still he could use Italian troops to weaken the British and then launch a decisive attack with German soldiers...

Italians would look nicely to their forces used as cannonfodder? Anyway, wouldn't that just erode air/sealift capacity that could be used to transport German units (who presumably would do better than Italians) If there actually is enough capacity left after the failed invasion... At least it would take time to replace the capacity lost on the failed attempt. By the time they're ready, defenses are bolstered enough to make 2nd invasion suicide.
 
Italians would look nicely to their forces used as cannonfodder? Anyway, wouldn't that just erode air/sealift capacity that could be used to transport German units (who presumably would do better than Italians) If there actually is enough capacity left after the failed invasion... At least it would take time to replace the capacity lost on the failed attempt. By the time they're ready, defenses are bolstered enough to make 2nd invasion suicide.

But the British didnt had reinforcements at hand... They couldnt afford sparing soldiers from North Africa... Rommel was stopped but stil was dangerous... The only way was to move soldiers from middle east... But idk how dangerous would that be...
 

Hyperion

Banned
But the British didnt had reinforcements at hand... They couldnt afford sparing soldiers from North Africa... Rommel was stopped but stil was dangerous... The only way was to move soldiers from middle east... But idk how dangerous would that be...

You have never studied this battle I take it.

Crete was a very close run thing OTL. The best German airborne forces where slaughtered in the battle, and the bulk of the German transport squadrons used in the operation where slaughtered as well.

A naval invasion has already been proven impossible with British domination of the eastern Med.

So how are these Germans or Italians going to even get to the island for round two, much less fight there.

Answer, they can't. To have a second go around on Crete would take months to rebuild.

Another thing, what about the Greeks. If they are given say six months or more of breathing space, what's to say they can't raise a small army to garrison the island themselves. It is after all a heavily populated Greek island.
 
It's also worth noting that the Italians also invaded Crete using forces from Rhodes at th every tail end of the German attack. If the German attack is wiped out, then the Italian attackers are likely to be as well, which will seriously compromise the Italian control of the Dodecanese.
 
It should be noted that most of the British soldiers on Crete were in a state of shambles having been evacuated from Greece and with a level of arms and equipment vastly below the norm yet Crete nearly held.

Another month or two to send replace material lost in Greece plus a few small specialist units at company or battalion level and the defense capacity would easily double.
 
It should be noted that most of the British soldiers on Crete were in a state of shambles having been evacuated from Greece and with a level of arms and equipment vastly below the norm yet Crete nearly held.

Another month or two to send replace material lost in Greece plus a few small specialist units at company or battalion level and the defense capacity would easily double.


I'm not so convinced this would be a net winner for the British; they would lose a shit load of ships supplying the place; and have to maintain two field divisions at least on the island as a permanent garrison (and its not like the British army was loaded with divisions sitting around with nothing to do)

The Germans had to maintain an entire corps there, that was tied down in brutal (and might still happen even with the British there) civil war/partisan actions and the British got the island back without having to reinvade

supplying crete and malta would be very taxing on the navy
 
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