Is it possible for Germany to be considered a non-Western country?

What makes a country "western"?
Why is Germany "western"?
When did Germany become "western?
Could Germany after 1945 till today be considered "non-Wester" in a ATL? What would be the difference between OTL Germany and this ATL Germany?
 
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Roman influence makes a country western.

Germany is western because it adopted the Latin script and some notion of being a Roman empire, plus it adopted Roman Catholicism.

Germany became western in the year 800 when Charlemagne was crowned Roman emperor by the Pope.
 
If it wasn't for every western country copying the Prussian bureaucracy
Really just a western sheen over eastern despotism
, in governance yes.
 
What makes a country "western"?
A country is western because they say so natch. People today want to be part of the west because saying so makes them feel good. It is the prestige factor. For a more complicated anwser you need to identify what do you mean by "western". You could say that it was inheriting the legacy of Rome but then you would have to include all of Europe and a majority of the planet then. You can use the original term of Western, the countries of Western Europe and their interconnected heritage. Or if you define the west to be the historical greater French "cultural sphere" than I think that is a narrow enough definitive for the purposes of this thread. Does that make England and the English western? Yes, it entered the French cultural sphere in 1066 and never really left it though I'd argue it eventually outgrew it. The Low Countries, England, France, and if we want to include Spain and Portugal were part of "Western Europe" and conquered and incorporated much of the world into their empires by 1900. So by 1900 the cultural legacy of these countries already includes much of the world.
Why is Germany "western"?
Because they want to be and say they are. Before the world wars though it was more complicated. The entire concept of Mitteleuropa in German nationalism is basically a rejection of the west in favor of Germany being its own cultural Sphere. If you look at a map at how many Germans there there were in Central Europe before 1939 than you have to admit maybe they had a point.
When did Germany become "western?
Losing WW1 and becoming a republic sort of crippled the concept of Mitteleuropa. But it was losing WW2 and being split between the Iron Curtain that killed the concept completely.
Could Germany after 1945 till today be considered "non-Wester" in a ATL?
If the Soviets conquered all of Germany during WW2, than yes it is possible. Though after the Iron Curtan falls there will probably be a lot of young Germans who would identify as Western.
 
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Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
They could be 'Central Europe' if they'd been neutralized and never recovered economically after the War.

Essentially have West Germany and the Allies accept the Stalin Note. Germany becomes a non-communist, neutral democracy like Austria and Switzerland, distinct from both western and eastern Europe.
European integration would me much more restricted and limited to France, Italy and the Benelux - if it happens at all, given that one of France's main motivations was to control the German coal and steel industry.
 
Essentially have West Germany and the Allies accept the Stalin Note. Germany becomes a non-communist, neutral democracy like Austria and Switzerland, distinct from both western and eastern Europe.
European integration would me much more restricted and limited to France, Italy and the Benelux - if it happens at all, given that one of France's main motivations was to control the German coal and steel industry.
People still think of Austria, Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries as "western", and did so even during the Cold War. I think you'd need Germany to outright enter the Soviet sphere, to put it in a similar situation to Poland and Czechoslovakia (which are also fairly western in terms of longer-term history and culture).
 
Roman influence makes a country western.

Germany is western because it adopted the Latin script and some notion of being a Roman empire, plus it adopted Roman Catholicism.

Germany became western in the year 800 when Charlemagne was crowned Roman emperor by the Pope.
... and in large parts 'changed' that with reformation. Therefore I would render your comment valid for post-reformation christian faiths as well.

And with that :
would you render
Poland
Lithunia
Lattvia
Estonia
Czechia
Slovakia​
also as "western" countries ?​
 
Soviets conquering all of Germany would probably do it, but I think it would make the concept of "Central Europe" (distinct from Eastern and Western Europe) much more important. If we assume similar events to OTL, with the collapse of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, then Central Europe would be considered to be Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Czechia, Slovakia, Poland, and Hungary. The Baltic states (especially Lithuania and Latvia) might be included in Central Europe due to similar economic development and history.
 
Well, it's history, mainly, I'd say : some parts were roman (not all of it, the border remained the same between catholics and protestants than between romans and free gothics); there happened to be the whole Carloman stuff, I guess it helps. But ... I guess if Germany was split between North and South rather than East-West, the separation would have more chance to remain.
 
... and in large parts 'changed' that with reformation. Therefore I would render your comment valid for post-reformation christian faiths as well.

And with that :
would you render
Poland
Lithunia
Lattvia
Estonia
Czechia
Slovakia​
also as "western" countries ?​
why yes.. yes I would... even Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Greece.. these are all western styled nations with western values. maybe not as crazy as the USA .. but they are all what I would consider western nations, with varying degrees of success and their own local cultures

speaking of western.. been to flint Michigan? ;) boy that is a great postcard for being western ;)
 
Have Nazi Germany win? That would take away a lot of "Western" values that people say make one "Western".
 
why yes.. yes I would... even Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Greece.. these are all western styled nations with western values. maybe not as crazy as the USA .. but they are all what I would consider western nations, with varying degrees of success and their own local cultures

speaking of western.. been to flint Michigan? ;) boy that is a great postcard for being western ;)
Does Western values even exist? Is not Western values just he values that dominate the West at a set point in time? That way the concept of Western values is ever changing.
 
Does Western values even exist? Is not Western values just he values that dominate the West at a set point in time? That way the concept of Western values is ever changing.
no idea.. I just no we all work.. many of us have kids and families.. we take care of them and nurture them.. we toil.. we laugh.. love.. cry.. our parents pass on.. we grow old and then we die..
don't think it matters where we live
 
Well, there is this notorious map, of course

map1942world1600.jpg


The people who came up with this at least were fairly comfortable with safely tucking germany away behind the iron curtain.
(Though now I can see they cleverly added the Rhineland at least to the western European state, which is a really smart move, as this is basically an industrial backbone between the alps and the dutch ports; but again, the choice seems to be strategical rather than cultural)

Things changed with the end of the cold war, of course, with most of eastern europe opening up, but I also get the feeling western germany was considered somewhat of a borderland (duh), not really part of the sexy, tourist-y notion of Europe (from, say, an American or British perspective) that is pretty much limited to the dark blueish areas of this map.

I'm not sure everyone outside germany sees it as entirely "western" to this day. For one thing, in pop culture you occasionally get like stereotypical germany/transylvania/eastern europe mixups (things like Terry Pratchett's Überwald, Unterland in the 'Venture Bros' and the Xylvanians in 'Battalion Wars' come to mind), perhaps due to he fact that german speaking populations were indeed quite mixed with eastern european nations in the past, especially if you factor in Austria-Hungary.
 
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The Soviets could have conquered all of Germany, but then they could have conquered France too, and that would not have made France "non-western" except in the political sense.

My own view is that Prussia after the Partitions of Poland could be seen as a partly non-western state (it being largely Slavic) as could Hapsburg Austria. But once the post-Napoleonic peace settlement detached most of ethnic Poland from Prussia and anchored Prussia firmly in the West by giving it the Rhineland, any future Prussia-based German state was going to be culturally a part of the West whatever its political orientation.
 
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