Is it possible for Electric Cars to become the standard?

[Theoretical_TJ]

The major problem with a lot of steam was the excess of power.
Steam engines give just as much torque at 1 rpm as 3000rpm

So with a Stanley Steamer, rated as '20 HP' had more than twice as much torque as a 1990 Dodge Ram Diesel Pickup, around 1000ft.lbs

Full throttle from a dead stop would result in spinning the tires right off the rims. There was no need for a transmission, it had all the torque anyone could ask for, needed no gearing changes to keep in the powerband

One of those '20' HP Stanleys held the world land speed record of 127mph in 1906, with a change in gearing and a streamlined body
Not bad for this

Wow................

 

[Driftless]

The major problem with a lot of steam was the excess of power.
Steam engines give just as much torque at 1 rpm as 3000rpm

So with a Stanley Steamer, rated as '20 HP' had more than twice as much torque as a 1990 Dodge Ram Diesel Pickup, around 1000ft.lbs

Full throttle from a dead stop would result in spinning the tires right off the rims. There was no need for a transmission, it had all the torque anyone could ask for, needed no gearing changes to keep in the powerband

One of those '20' HP Stanleys held the world land speed record of 127mph in 1906, with a change in gearing and a streamlined body
Not bad for this

I can imagine those were comparatively quiet vehicles too. By comparisson, the Minnesota Transportation Museum runs a resurrected steam powered streetcar boat - the Minnehaha - on Lake Minnetonka. I found it quite astonishing how quiet the engine is

 

[marathag]

I can imagine those were comparatively quiet vehicles too. By comparisson, the Minnesota Transportation Museum runs a resurrected steam powered streetcar boat - the Minnehaha - on Lake Minnetonka. I found it quite astonishing how quiet the engine is

Single expansion steam is a bit noisy, like in most autos and trains the steam exhaust was used to increase draft in the firebox(that's the chuff), while marine engines typically used multiple cylinders to get more energy out of the steam, and then ran thru a condenser to recover the water

 

[marathag]

I could see a simple electric car being quite popular if it had perhaps a nominal 96 volt lead acid battery system to facilitate fairly simple recharging from say a 110 to 115 Volt DC line ? (I expect this type of arrangement might not meet modern safety standards ?)

Edison chose 110 Volts for his DC transmission.

If you grab a DC line, your muscles will contract and you then can't let go, and you will cook. AC you have the chance of those muscles spasms in time the the 60 hz, soul you might be able to pull loose before you cook too much.

Back to the lead acid. yeah, that would get it to the proper float voltage, but problem arise where you have shorted cells, a direct hookup with bad cells, you will get overcharging in the rest an boil out a lot of H2

 

[JennyB]

Going to have to butterfly WWI, which produced a demand for ic vehicles and people who knew how to drive and fix them, together with an increase in speed and power due to the development of aero engines.
Battery vehicles are going to be useless in rural areas until you get cheap PV, but they are the ideal replacement for horse transport in and around town.

 

[phx1138]

There might be a way to get *batteries of much higher performance sooner, if you accept a different definition: namely, SMES. So, if somebody followed Onnes' work (or preceded it) and got a breakthrough in high-temperature superconductivity, it might have been possible to build electric cars in the 1900s-1910s, or sooner, that were much better than OTL's.

 

[Blue cat]

Edison chose 110 Volts for his DC transmission.

If you grab a DC line, your muscles will contract and you then can't let go, and you will cook. AC you have the chance of those muscles spasms in time the the 60 hz, soul you might be able to pull loose before you cook too much.

Back to the lead acid. yeah, that would get it to the proper float voltage, but problem arise where you have shorted cells, a direct hookup with bad cells, you will get overcharging in the rest an boil out a lot of H2

Good points.. Maybe the charging system features a current meter to monitor charging current, a rheostat to reduce the current if needed, a fuse to prevent extreme over current, and the owners / operators are expected to check fluid levels in the batteries and perform other similar maintenance. I'm thinking of something that might have been possible 100 years ago. Today I don't believe this would be acceptable or allowed for a variety of reasons.

 

[SsgtC]

Good points.. Maybe the charging system features a current meter to monitor charging current, a rheostat to reduce the current if needed, a fuse to prevent extreme over current, and the owners / operators are expected to check fluid levels in the batteries and perform other similar maintenance. I'm thinking of something that might have been possible 100 years ago. Today I don't believe this would be acceptable or allowed for a variety of reasons.

But with having all of that complexity, you're basically handing Henry Ford the biggest PR win of his life. "Look how easy and simple to use and maintain our cars are verses these. Why spend hours of your day charging and monitoring your electric car when it takes only minutes to fill your gas tank and be on your way?"

 

[1940LaSalle]

I seem to recall that DC power distribution to consumers was by no means un heard of in the early part of the 20th century ? An interesting what if (for me anyways) is if Electric cars were popular, perhaps DC power distribution might have been more popular although I expect AC would still eventually have taken over.

I could see a simple electric car being quite popular if it had perhaps a nominal 96 volt lead acid battery system to facilitate fairly simple recharging from say a 110 to 115 Volt DC line ? (I expect this type of arrangement might not meet modern safety standards ?)

You're right: in the early 20th century, domestic power was often direct current, but not universally so. You'd still need a substantial feed to recharge a bank of batteries at 90 VDC (common on many/most electric cars around World War I) even overnight--and until after World War II, many homes had only 60 A service with some as little as 30 A service, all of it running through a fuse panel. Long story short, the means to recharge a bank of batteries was right behind battery technology itself in limiting the prevalence of electric cars.

 

[Blue cat]

But with having all of that complexity, you're basically handing Henry Ford the biggest PR win of his life. "Look how easy and simple to use and maintain our cars are verses these. Why spend hours of your day charging and monitoring your electric car when it takes only minutes to fill your gas tank and be on your way?"

True but cars with internal combustion engines needed maintainence, and perhaps there was an "up sell" opportunity for a more automated charging system for electric vehicles.

 

[1940LaSalle]

steam engines are heavy, bulky, consume a ton of water, and can't easily have their speed changed, which you need in a car.

On the variable speed question, no. I've witnessed 1910 vintage Stanleys accelerate very smoothly from a standing start many times (to see this, visit the Hagley car show in Wilmington, DE, in mid-September, where you'll see upwards of seven or eight Stanleys, all of which arrive under their own power). All it takes is experience in working the throttle, which is easily acquired with time. You might be thinking of steam turbines, which work best at a steady speed.

On the water question, you have a point. Later Stanleys incorporated an air-cooled condenser which decreased water consumption noticeably, so that might be an over-the-horizon improvement. But note also that Stanleys of the era also had steam-driven eductors and hose connections, complete with strainers, that would allow them to draw water from any available source at atmospheric pressure: e.g., a horse trough, a pond, etc. So the question of access to water, at least away from the plains and desert states, wouldn't be a significant problem. Bulky...see the above photos. Heavy...no more so than an internal combustion engine, and with fewer moving parts in the bargain.

 

[Blue cat]

You're right: in the early 20th century, domestic power was often direct current, but not universally so. You'd still need a substantial feed to recharge a bank of batteries at 90 VDC (common on many/most electric cars around World War I) even overnight--and until after World War II, many homes had only 60 A service with some as little as 30 A service, all of it running through a fuse panel. Long story short, the means to recharge a bank of batteries was right behind battery technology itself in limiting the prevalence of electric cars.

I'm not convinced you couldn't get a reasonable over night charging rate with say 30 amps, but if needed there would have been opportunities for the electric utilities to "up sell" larger services to their customers.

Thinking about this a bit more I suspect the electric utilities would have to have been a major proponent of this in order for it to work out.

 

[marathag]

I'm not convinced you couldn't get a reasonable over night charging rate with say 30 amps, but if needed there would have been opportunities for the electric utilities to "up sell" larger services to their customers.

Thinking about this a bit more I suspect the electric utilities would have to have been a major proponent of this in order for it to work out.

Some Electric Utilities tried that path, but Electric lost out by the '20s as IC vehicles improved, while Electric, didn't, and could not, for decades. Lead Acid did gain capacity per pound with better plate design, but isn't the jump you need. You have to wait for the '80s development of modern 'Rare-Earth' based cells

 

[SsgtC]

True but cars with internal combustion engines needed maintainence, and perhaps there was an "up sell" opportunity for a more automated charging system for electric vehicles.

Yes they do, but not as frequently, or as expensive, as an electric car. They also don't lose range over time. An electric car will as it's batteries get older and can no longer hold a charge as long.

As far as automating goes, that would be difficult with the technology of the era. Not impossible, but difficult. And if it's difficult, it's expensive. So now, you've handed Ford his second PR win: cost. His vehicle is probably already cheaper than an electric one. Now, you add in the upsell, and we're talking buying two Fords for the cost of one electric.

I'm not convinced you couldn't get a reasonable over night charging rate with say 30 amps, but if needed there would have been opportunities for the electric utilities to "up sell" larger services to their customers.

This ties in with my above point. How much can you up sell before it becomes ridiculously cheaper to buy and own an IC engined car over an electric?

 

[marathag]

You're right: in the early 20th century, domestic power was often direct current, but not universally so. You'd still need a substantial feed to recharge a bank of batteries at 90 VDC (common on many/most electric cars around World War I) even overnight--and until after World War II, many homes had only 60 A service with some as little as 30 A service, all of it running through a fuse panel. Long story short, the means to recharge a bank of batteries was right behind battery technology itself in limiting the prevalence of electric cars.

And if you didn't have DC to the house, but AC, as was the norm for most customers after 1900
You would need to convert to DC
As posted upthread, early Rectifiers were downright scary, especially when you needed high number Amps for current.
far worse than the tube based units, were the 'wet' style rectifiers.
https://books.google.com/books?id=2ZPmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA182
They used tantalum plates submerged in sulfuric acid. Their failure mode included exploding.

 

[Blue cat]

Yes they do, but not as frequently, or as expensive, as an electric car. They also don't lose range over time. An electric car will as it's batteries get older and can no longer hold a charge as long.

As far as automating goes, that would be difficult with the technology of the era. Not impossible, but difficult. And if it's difficult, it's expensive. So now, you've handed Ford his second PR win: cost. His vehicle is probably already cheaper than an electric one. Now, you add in the upsell, and we're talking buying two Fords for the cost of one electric.

This ties in with my above point. How much can you up sell before it becomes ridiculously cheaper to buy and own an IC engined car over an electric?

I basically agree re the battery charging issues although I suspect a simple charging system might have worked okay quite often. I'm thinking that electric motor maintenance may have been simpler in the long run than maintaining an IC engine, but in any event IC automobiles proved to be more popular than electric automobiles a century or so ago.

 

[Blue cat]

And if you didn't have DC to the house, but AC, as was the norm for most customers after 1900
You would need to convert to DC
As posted upthread, early Rectifiers were downright scary, especially when you needed high number Amps for current.
far worse than the tube based units, were the 'wet' style rectifiers.
https://books.google.com/books?id=2ZPmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA182
They used tantalum plates submerged in sulfuric acid. Their failure mode included exploding.

I don't see this being very popular for consumers. Motor generators might be another option but they have their own issues.

 

[kernals12]

Yes they do, but not as frequently, or as expensive, as an electric car. They also don't lose range over time. An electric car will as it's batteries get older and can no longer hold a charge as long.

As far as automating goes, that would be difficult with the technology of the era. Not impossible, but difficult. And if it's difficult, it's expensive. So now, you've handed Ford his second PR win: cost. His vehicle is probably already cheaper than an electric one. Now, you add in the upsell, and we're talking buying two Fords for the cost of one electric.

This ties in with my above point. How much can you up sell before it becomes ridiculously cheaper to buy and own an IC engined car over an electric?

How can an electric car possibly require more maintenance? They have far fewer moving parts.

 

[kernals12]

On the variable speed question, no. I've witnessed 1910 vintage Stanleys accelerate very smoothly from a standing start many times (to see this, visit the Hagley car show in Wilmington, DE, in mid-September, where you'll see upwards of seven or eight Stanleys, all of which arrive under their own power). All it takes is experience in working the throttle, which is easily acquired with time. You might be thinking of steam turbines, which work best at a steady speed.

On the water question, you have a point. Later Stanleys incorporated an air-cooled condenser which decreased water consumption noticeably, so that might be an over-the-horizon improvement. But note also that Stanleys of the era also had steam-driven eductors and hose connections, complete with strainers, that would allow them to draw water from any available source at atmospheric pressure: e.g., a horse trough, a pond, etc. So the question of access to water, at least away from the plains and desert states, wouldn't be a significant problem. Bulky...see the above photos. Heavy...no more so than an internal combustion engine, and with fewer moving parts in the bargain.

Well obviously there's a reason why we don't drive steam powered cars. In the late 60s, there were attempts to bring back steam cars as a solution to the problem of smog. GM converted a Pontiac Grand Prix. They needed to extend the engine compartment by 9 inches to get a steam engine with only half the horsepower of the V8 engine that it had replaced. The one advantage steam cars had was that they started easily requiring only a few minutes for the boiler to heat while ICE cars required turning a crank starter, which was tedious and dangerous. Once Electric starters came along, steam cars lost their only advantage.

 

[Blue cat]

How can an electric car possibly require more maintenance? They have far fewer moving parts.

I suspect the batteries and practical charging systems might have been quite "fiddly" 100 years ago.