Is Greater Indonesia possible?

ben0628

Banned
Greater Indonesia was an idea to combine the lands of Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and East Timor into one country. This idea was first created in the early 1900s, became somewhat popular during WW2 and immediately afterwards, but faded away by the 1970s.

My question is, with a pod after 1900, is it possible for a Greater Indonesia to be created?
 
Not really possible. If you look at history there has been a stronger tendency towards entropy rather than unification. Whether it's the First Mexican Empire, Central American Federation, Gran Colombia, a united India, USSR, Yugoslavia, or Czechoslovakia instances of empires and multinational states dissolving is much more common in history than the joining of nations that have fundamental religious and cultural differences. Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Timor-Leste (or East East as it should properly be called in English) would be unusual and unique in history. Nations split in two because of religion- Ireland Catholic and Northern Ireland Protestant; Palestine Jewish and Trans-Jordan Muslim; India Hindu and Pakistan Muslim; Israel Jewish and Palestinian areas occupied by Jordan and Egypt Muslim; Cyprus Orthodox and Northern Cyprus Muslim; Indonesia Muslim and Timor-Leste Catholic. Think about the post-Cold War era... Germany and Yemen each United two separate states versus the dissolution of the USSR, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia; plenty of other nations have found independence since as well such as Namibia, Nauru, and South Sudan to name only a few. Meanwhile even Macedonia and Bulgaria; Romania and Moldova; Kosovo and Albania couldn't agree to unite despite cultural and linguistic and historical ties.

Singapore won't want to be a part of a Greater Malay any more than they wanted to be part of Malaysia. Same with East East not wanting to be part of a Muslim majority nation, which it will be thanks to Indonesia's inclusion.
 

ben0628

Banned
Not really possible. If you look at history there has been a stronger tendency towards entropy rather than unification. Whether it's the First Mexican Empire, Central American Federation, Gran Colombia, a united India, USSR, Yugoslavia, or Czechoslovakia instances of empires and multinational states dissolving is much more common in history than the joining of nations that have fundamental religious and cultural differences. Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Timor-Leste (or East East as it should properly be called in English) would be unusual and unique in history. Nations split in two because of religion- Ireland Catholic and Northern Ireland Protestant; Palestine Jewish and Trans-Jordan Muslim; India Hindu and Pakistan Muslim; Israel Jewish and Palestinian areas occupied by Jordan and Egypt Muslim; Cyprus Orthodox and Northern Cyprus Muslim; Indonesia Muslim and Timor-Leste Catholic. Think about the post-Cold War era... Germany and Yemen each United two separate states versus the dissolution of the USSR, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia; plenty of other nations have found independence since as well such as Namibia, Nauru, and South Sudan to name only a few. Meanwhile even Macedonia and Bulgaria; Romania and Moldova; Kosovo and Albania couldn't agree to unite despite cultural and linguistic and historical ties.

Singapore won't want to be a part of a Greater Malay any more than they wanted to be part of Malaysia. Same with East East not wanting to be part of a Muslim majority nation, which it will be thanks to Indonesia's inclusion.


Those are valid points. However the region had been unified before under a few different empires (the latest being the majapahit). And the region is also unified in its want for independence from its colonial oppressors.

It's probably not possible. However I think the best chance of it happening is the Dutch entering WW1 on the Central Power side followed by the British conquering the dei and then somehow able to avoid WW2 in the Pacific which would result in decolonization happening later and maybe resulting in some kind of federalized Greater Indonesia.
 
Those are valid points. However the region had been unified before under a few different empires (the latest being the majapahit). And the region is also unified in its want for independence from its colonial oppressors.

It's probably not possible. However I think the best chance of it happening is the Dutch entering WW1 on the Central Power side followed by the British conquering the dei and then somehow able to avoid WW2 in the Pacific which would result in decolonization happening later and maybe resulting in some kind of federalized Greater Indonesia.
And that would work initially. But eventually you will have non-Muslim areas fighting for independence. Perhaps you could get a federalization along the lines of Bosnia and Herzegovina where Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Muslims have found a way to use their common Serbo-Croatian language and culture to stay united.
 
Given how little say Indonesia would have in the matter I'd have to say no. If the changes were made in the halls of power in Europe then it's possible, but it would need a country to take colonies from Netherlands, Portugal and Britain, the first two are a possibility but Britain would be tough.
 
Original time line Indonesia alone has a tremendous amount of diverse ethnic, lingual, and to some extent religious groups. True, there are some obvious dominating factors, with a Javanese population which forms the centerpiece, and a majority Islamic population, but Indonesia shows that diverse political groupings on such a size and scale can exist. Indonesian nationalism comes from the legacy of Dutch rule in the region, and the resistance to it. Benedict Anderson devotes an outsized amount of his Imagined Communities to Indonesia, and a key point is that former Dutch administration and rule meant a creole nationalism could develop, one that proved to be incredibly strong in the end. India and Indonesia despite their diversity and vast populations, are workable political concepts.

By far the easiest way to have it work is to have it fall under a single European entity which administrates them as one block, and supports keeping them together at independence. The Dutch or the English are the two versions of this. I would think that the Dutch would be more likely to do so than the English, as the English, like originally happened with Singapore and Malaysia, will probably separate it out. But regardless, as long as one does get these factors to happen, then there will be a nationalism that will exist, that'll imagine this greater Indonesia into creation.

Developing a Greater Indonesia by the independent states is extremely difficult. East Timor was, and is, a small, poorly populated, and economically backwards state, but Indonesia proved incapable of holding onto it in the long term. For Malaysia and Singapore, the difficulties would be tremendously magnified. Once a nationalist imagination is set into place to compete, things get much harder. But the formation of nations and nationalisms is tremendously fluid when being created, and could easily accomodate such a Greater Indonesia concept if caught early enough.
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
Not really possible. If you look at history there has been a stronger tendency towards entropy rather than unification. Whether it's the First Mexican Empire, Central American Federation, Gran Colombia, a united India, USSR, Yugoslavia, or Czechoslovakia instances of empires and multinational states dissolving is much more common in history than the joining of nations that have fundamental religious and cultural differences. Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Timor-Leste (or East East as it should properly be called in English) would be unusual and unique in history. Nations split in two because of religion- Ireland Catholic and Northern Ireland Protestant; Palestine Jewish and Trans-Jordan Muslim; India Hindu and Pakistan Muslim; Israel Jewish and Palestinian areas occupied by Jordan and Egypt Muslim; Cyprus Orthodox and Northern Cyprus Muslim; Indonesia Muslim and Timor-Leste Catholic. Think about the post-Cold War era... Germany and Yemen each United two separate states versus the dissolution of the USSR, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia; plenty of other nations have found independence since as well such as Namibia, Nauru, and South Sudan to name only a few. Meanwhile even Macedonia and Bulgaria; Romania and Moldova; Kosovo and Albania couldn't agree to unite despite cultural and linguistic and historical ties.

Singapore won't want to be a part of a Greater Malay any more than they wanted to be part of Malaysia. Same with East East not wanting to be part of a Muslim majority nation, which it will be thanks to Indonesia's inclusion.

It would require a pre-1900 pod, but would a alternate history where the Dutch Empire also controlled Malaysia instead of the British.

Would that help in creating a Greater Indonesia?

Regards filers.
 
Top