Is early Griffon engine too boring and tedious?

Sior

Banned
The Air Ministry had a doctrine that long range fighter aircraft cannot compete with short range a/c. The Mustang combined a British engine with a NACA laminar flow airfoil with maximum thickness where the fuel tanks are located, imparting the miracle of range. Many features of the Mustang were designed to impart maximum effectiveness from the Meredith effect radiator. Meredith was English. The effect was real. The Spitfire utilized some of the effect. Some models of the Bf-109 used some of the effect. The Mustang was designed around the effect, from the supercharger intake under the nose to the wheel well doors which opened AND closed on each cycle to impart smooth flow to the stand-off radiator intake. The Spitfire had no wheel well doors over half the wheel. and the supercharger intake of the Mustang was used for a handful of Seafire 47s, last of the Spitfire line. The Mustang was never designed to take the Griffon, but boys will be boys.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin-Baker_MB_5

General characteristics
Performance
Armament

 
I might try Tooze if I can get one. My reading list of late has been epic disaster.

The performance of a Griffon Fulmar could compare to an early Firefly, which is more competetive but decidedly not epic.

Like all history, I have read that the Griffon version was considered, but I've also read that De Havilland was dead set against it. The Mossie was decidedly not forgiving of a shift in center of gravity. Two-stage Merlins made it nose-heavy, and the last nightfighter with a heavy British radar was deemed unflyable. The Mossie was also overly sensitive on elevators, and the factory fix was to add a note to the pilot's handbook, "care must be taken".

It's a shame, though, think what it's speed would have been with a Griffon...!!
 
Instead of the Griffin what about the Fairly P24. 24 cylinder H type layout similiar to the Napier Rapier except water cooled. Co-axial output shafts but the crankshafts were not linked. this would allow one side of the engine to be throttled back or shut down. Fairly however was in good favor with the Air Ministry. There are any number of US, UK aero engines that either got shunted aside or had their development canceled. Pratt & Whitney's X-1800 and H-3730 are but two. The Curtiss Conqueror also was dropped for a number of reasons

http://www.enginehistory.org/P&W/Museum/Recips/XH-2600_002.jpg

http://www.enginehistory.org/P&W/Museum/Recips/XH-3730_001.jpg


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_V-1570
 
It seems like official documentation that the MB-5 was armed with 4 Hispano MkII cannons with 200 rpg. The MB-3 was armed with 6 MkII cannons, and yet they protrude well beyond the wing leading edge. Could it be that the MB-5 actually had MkV cannons, the good ones, and documentation is incorrect? Conspiracy theories are contrary to protocol, but still, the question lingers. Valentine Baker died in the MB3 due to Napier Sabre engine failure. There was something called a Napier-Heston racer powered by a hand-built Sabre engine. That pilot died too. The MB3 featured the semi-Meredith radiators of slim profile, shared with the Spiteful. One can propose that a successful MB3, powered by a Griffon, might have met with some production success, after broadening the tailplane as per MB5, but that would be folly, since the Air Ministry didn't seem at all favorable to elevating Martin Baker into the status of a manufacturer of their own designs, and ejection seat design and manufacture would suffer by it. The Air Ministry did issue a proclamation that all future installations of Griffon engines would copy the Martin Baker design, but there weren't any. Hollow praise.
 
I forgot the drawing. oops.

martin-baker_mb-3.gif
 
Instead of the Griffin what about the Fairly P24. 24 cylinder H type layout similiar to the Napier Rapier except water cooled. Co-axial output shafts but the crankshafts were not linked. this would allow one side of the engine to be throttled back or shut down. Fairly however was in good favor with the Air Ministry. There are any number of US, UK aero engines that either got shunted aside or had their development canceled. Pratt & Whitney's X-1800 and H-3730 are but two. The Curtiss Conqueror also was dropped for a number of reasons

The Fairey P-24 would have been a wonderful powerplant for a successful Blackburn B20, but Blackburn was Blackburn, and Air Ministry prejudice is the law.
All the odd American engines were ordered on the basis of "Build something you're no good at". They were intended to power aircraft ordered under the edict to "build something odd". It therefore isn't that surprising that all the engines and all the aircraft didn't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. On the other hand, Rolls had been building V-12 engines of 36.7 litres since the Buzzard. It should be noted that at the highest levels of development, the puny 26 litre Merlin did power the DH Hornet to fairly high rates of speed, but sometimes, there's nothing like cubic inches.
 
I might try Tooze if I can get one. My reading list of late has been epic disaster.

The performance of a Griffon Fulmar could compare to an early Firefly, which is more competetive but decidedly not epic.

Either that or it gets weighed down with stressing for Divebombing as a replacement for the Skua. Although this may cure the FAA of the whole 2 seat fighter thing early.
 
Either that or it gets weighed down with stressing for Divebombing as a replacement for the Skua. Although this may cure the FAA of the whole 2 seat fighter thing early.

The Fulmar, due to its origins, was capable, and tested to 60 degrees with a 500 lb bomb. As far as scrapping the two-seater concept, someone was quoted as saying you can build a new ship in a couple years, but centuries to build a new tradition.

BTW, Tooze is on order from my library.
 

Deleted member 1487

BTW, Tooze is on order from my library.

Read Tooze with some caution, he's got some issues with his analysis.

The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy by Adam Tooze Review by: Harold James Central European History, Vol. 40, No. 2 (Jun., 2007), pp. 366-371 Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of Conference Group for Central European History of
the American Historical Association Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20457241 .
...
Some of the repeated claims to novelty look a little contrived. There is by now a substantial industrydevoted to the dismantling of Albert Speer's self serving account of his role in the Nazi state, and even the late Joachim Fest, who helped Speer put together his exculpation, had second thoughts andacknowledged thathe had been duped by Speer. Other points are also simply not all that novel: in one instance,Tooze explains carefully and correctly that there were already signs of cyclical economic recovery in the second half of 1932, in other words before Hitler took power and could lay claim to an economic miracle. Tooze likes this point so much that he tells us that "This is a crucial point because it contradicts all subsequent portrayals of the German economy under National Socialism" (p. 31). All subsequent portrayals? Actually, buried in a footnote on page 698 it becomes clear that quite a number of accounts have made exactly this case.

...
After all the rubble from the historiographical demolition settles, an interpretation is left that looks much closer to the conventional wisdom of the 1930s, namely that Hitler was directing a powerful and efficient machine toward com plete mobilization forwar. Even Hitler's oddest strategic gambles, notably the invasion of the Soviet Union, had an underlying logic. To this interpretation, though, Tooze adds an odd twist that is not at all part of any conventional wisdom:that the underlying problem was simply that Germany was very poor at the outset of Hitler's effort.

The central part of Tooze's argument rests on his often-repeated statement that Germany in the 1930s was not a powerful industrial economy, but rather a poor state, profoundly lagging behind the United States and more on the developmental level of "modern Iran or South Africa" (p. xxiii), a "European economy of modest resources" (p. 461). "Clearly, in Hitler's Germany only a small minority of the population lived in circumstances which we today would describe as comfortable" (p. 143). This risks being profoundly ahistorical, especially when the picture of the United States that is conjured up as a contrast is that of modern, twenty-first century American consumerist prosperity.The real United States of the 1930s was that of the dustbowl, the Depression, and extreme poverty.Obviously, if modern Iran could somehow be transported back in time on a magic historical flying carpet to the middle of the twentieth century, it would have been the dominant superpower. There are also simply factual problems in the attempt to shrink Germany's economic position. Tooze goes on to make a contrast between German housing and the "facilities taken forgranted in the United States, such as separate bathroom and kitchen, indoor toilet, and runningwater." In fact, in 1930, only fifty-one percent of American households had inside flush toilets (in 1920, the proportion had only been twentypercent). Another anachronistic flavor is given in the comparative depiction of military potential through the problematical use of an artificial statistical currency (1990 U.S. PPP or Purchasing Power Parity dollars, a concept that few of Tooze's readers will understand):it overstates the relative power potential of poorer societies (such as those of eastern Europe or the Soviet Union) because services are very cheap there,but clearly form an important part of an estimation of purchasing power. PPP tells us little about the capacity to buy weapons or steel.

Some aspects of the story are left out in Tooze's account, sometimes rather oddly, because they might actually have strengthened his case, in other instances, however,because they fit uncomfortably with the overall thesis.Having made the argument thatsteel is at the center of the Nazi economic story,it is surprising that there isn't more discussion not just of the problems of access to iron ore and coking coal, but also to the metal ores needed for the production of specialty steel required for many engineering and military purposes. There is one reference (p. 312) to General Brauchitsch's complaint in 1939 that the inadequacy of rations of nonferrous metals amounted to a "liquidation of the army's rearmament effort," and another quotation in 1941 of General Thomas's fear that the invasion of the Soviet Union would lead to Germany losing its only source of manganese (p. 438). But otherwise the crucial story of steel alloys and more generally of nonferrous metals is left untold: there is no mention at all (as far as I can see) of wolfram. Yet these were vital necessities for the armaments economy, which could only be imported and for which Germany needed foreign exchange or gold.

Here again, Tooze is remarkably silent. Though there is a good deal of discussion of theReichsbank's (central bank's) gold and foreign exchange position in the 1930s and much reference to anti-inflationarypolicy during the war, the wartime acquisition of looted gold and its use (via Switzerland and partly also Sweden) for obtaining foreign currency and thus the ability to buy metal ores is not referred to at all. One of themost horrifying links between economics and the Holocaust is thus passed over, and SS-Captain Bruno Melmer (who made the deliveries of gold extracted from the dead and livingmouths of the victims of Germany's racialwar) makes no appearance in Tooze's pages. Neither is there any discussion of another episode that is important for the understanding of the relation of economic issues and the intensificationof the regime'smurderous persecution of Jews, and thathas been extensively docu mented by Yehuda Bauer and by Thomas Sandkiihler and Bettina Zeugin: the internment of wealthy West European Jews in special concentration camps (most notably Bergen Belsen) away from the eastern killing fields, where they might be used to extract ransoms from relatives in Britain or the United States. Again the most obvious German motive was the necessity of acquiring foreign exchange to pay for strategic imports.With Pearl Harbor and the U.S. entry into the war, this exercise became much harder, and Germany embarked on the whole sale annihilation of west European Jewry. Here was another occasion on which December 1941 constituted the fulcrum of the war.

Other surprising absences include the following: In the course of a narration of the political intrigues that allowed Hitler to consolidate power in the early months of 1933, we are not told about the Reichstag fire and how the subsequent banning of the communist party allowed the Nazis to control parliament. There is a detailed discussion of the economic gains that theAnschluss ofAustria brought (not enough to improveGermany's position), but no equivalent analysis of the very substantial contribution of the Czech economy after March 1939, with its prominent armaments sector. This omission makes it possible for Tooze to analyze a "severe setback toGermany's armaments effort" in the summer of 1939, which we are told is "fully revealed for the first time in this chapter" (p. 317). The discussion of the agrarian Nazis and their role is well handled, but there is no equivalent analysis of the Mittelstand Nazis, such as Otto Ohlendorf, or of the SS's attempts to out flank Speer and build up a socialist economy rather than the private-public partnership on which Speer relied.The narrating of these kinds of conflict was a central part of most efforts to depict internal tensions as a fundamental source of inefficiency in the German political and military regime. The controversial issue of how far in the last years of the war some parts of the German economy were preparing for a post-Nazi world is not tackled either, presumably because it would not fit either with the title or the theme of the Nazi economy as just another "European economy of modest resources."
 
Read Tooze with some caution, he's got some issues with his analysis.

He still gives the best and most logical rationale for why the German rearmament did many of the things it did. Following the numbers is far more believable that the 'OMG, Speer is so cooool, we must believe him!!' earlier school...:confused:
 
Read Tooze with some caution, he's got some issues with his analysis.

I am very used to reading false history, and getting two or three sides of the same story, sometimes from the same source. I mentioned Dr. Berghaus and plasma nitriding earlier. If the book has more realism than a Clive Cussler, however, to quote Martha Stewart, "That's a good thing". Yet, if I pass out dead from ennui halfway through the book, let the blame be on Astro's head.
 
The Fulmar, due to its origins, was capable, and tested to 60 degrees with a 500 lb bomb. As far as scrapping the two-seater concept, someone was quoted as saying you can build a new ship in a couple years, but centuries to build a new tradition.

Excellent point. However, the RN did specify a singles seat fighter for base defence. A Griffon engined Fulmar would probably be seen as adequate for the RN's needs for some years (in early 1941 that its) and would would probably butterfly away the Sea Hurricane, and lead to a slower development of the Firefly.

With the Tornado presumably entering service in 1941 and acquiting itself well against early FW 190s this might lead to earlier research down the light Fighter route that led to the introduction of the Sea Fury.

And on an unrelated note, a Griffon engined Manchester would probably butterfly away the Lancaster.
 
Excellent point. However, the RN did specify a singles seat fighter for base defence. A Griffon engined Fulmar would probably be seen as adequate for the RN's needs for some years (in early 1941 that its) and would would probably butterfly away the Sea Hurricane, and lead to a slower development of the Firefly.

With the Tornado presumably entering service in 1941 and acquiting itself well against early FW 190s this might lead to earlier research down the light Fighter route that led to the introduction of the Sea Fury.

And on an unrelated note, a Griffon engined Manchester would probably butterfly away the Lancaster.

Indeed, a Griffon Fulmar could handily replace the Sea Hurricane, except in the disposable cat-launch role. The Firefly would be superfluous.

The Vulture Tornado didn't quite meet the required speed specification and I feel that a single-stage Griffon powered one wouldn't either. A two-stage Griffon Tornado would ultimately arrive at the same brick wall roadblock that prevented the Typhoon from becoming a real mainstream fighter. There are many lessons to be learned between Hurricane and Sea Fury, and Sir Sydney isn't a quick study.

The loss of the Lancaster, and Halifax is a conundrum. The easy way out is to create a new 4 Griffon bomber which we call the Shackleton. Unfortunately, that adds a new conundrum wrapped in an enigma, which is the extra production facilities.
 
The Halifax would still exist it arrived at the same time or slightly before the Manchester. Shorts might get the go ahead for the 4 Centaurus Stirling development or the Halibag get 4 Griffons instead of Hercules.
 
The Halifax would still exist it arrived at the same time or slightly before the Manchester. Shorts might get the go ahead for the 4 Centaurus Stirling development or the Halibag get 4 Griffons instead of Hercules.

The Halifax engine fitment was altered after Vulture troubles became known. Had Griffon, trouble-free, been the specified engine, the Halifax would have been completed as a twin, per original specification and intent. Had the Air Ministry done some calculations and done the right thing, the spec might have been altered to a 4-engine bomber, but having the AM do the right thing seems so ASB.

One reason I like the concept of the Supermarine heavy bomber is that one can use the imagination to make it whatever you like, since it was, in reality, totally obliterated and any kind of reminder of what a loss it was was erased as well. The Short Stirling, on the other hand, was the most delightful and most manoeuverable bomber to fly, and the toughest opponent to German nightfighters. It was also dead meat for flak, due to a combination of misbehavior by both Shorts, and the Ministry, being 17 feet too long, and set on undercarriage legs higher than some church steeples. Also, I may not know good from bad, but I know ugly. Did you know that more Folland flying engine test-beds were lost to Centaurus failures than from Sabre failures? It seems a shame to go to all the trouble of de-bugging the Centaurus only to put it on the wings of a Stirling. I know it's just a matter of taste, but I consider myself extremely tasteful. My dog agrees with me.
 
The Stirling wasn't helped by being designed to fit through standard width hanger doors!!!
An earlier Griffon almost certainly means that the original Spitfire IV would be produced.
 
Is anybody else afraid of Fairey, having designed the Fulmar around the Griffon, selling a Griffon powered Battle to the RAF instead of having it out of production in September 1940 replaced by more modern types?

Early Griffon powered Spitfires (late 40/early 41) would render the balance of fighter superiority in the west totally in RAF favour, and have serious consequences for the LW.
 
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