Is American Canada the American Equivalent of Sealion?

It seems to me that there's really no good time for the US to conquer Canada. If it seizes it in 1775, then they're driven out a few months later by British forces. The Napoleonic Wars would require the US to at least get a major military complex prior to the war; which would only come about if you had pro-British Federalists in charge.

The Civil War? Eh...

Short of something like TL 191, this seems to be a surprisingly low probability.
 
Not in the least. It just would have required a few lucky breaks on part of the Americans and/or a few unlucky ones for the British.

Of course, the other question being just how much of Canada are you looking for the USA to obtain? Western Canada and the prairies are very simple, as is the Ontario peninsula depending on the POD. The farther East you go though, the harder or more violent obtaining it would be though.
 
Conquer? Perhaps unlikely, but American Canada itself? Not really. A harsher occupation of Quebec after the 7 Year War and maybe Quebec voluntarily joins in the rebellion when it hits. Though I suppose by that standard actual Sealion may be possible. I briefly mapped out a Steampunk RPG game where there was a plot by the Knights of the Circle, in conjuction with German operatives to wipe out most of the British line so that the United Kingdom would be merged with the German Empire. That got scrapped for being silly, but the right deaths at the right time and there's German troops on British soil...though for very different reasons.

I don't think I had much of a point to this response other than...it's unlikely but not impossible.
 
No it definitely is not (although it does not stop several on this forum from saying otherwise), the easiest one is a POD during the ARW over the Quebec Act though.
 
Its not impossible for relations to get worse between the UK and USA though. Ironically if Canada does join then I could see UK-USA relations get worse.

If we're looking to trash UK-USA relations, what if the US gave Quebec back to France after liberating it from the British? Not extremely likely, but not impossible either.
 
It is not ASB but nor is it a case of a few lucky breaks for the US and a little bad luck for the British, that neatly sums up the War of 1812 which gave America its National song about not losing a fort in Maryland.

The invasion of Canada was a subject of intense study for the US War Department and Department of the Navy in the latter half of the 19th century, not because they expected it but because they expected it to be hard and it thus made a deliciously challenging task for young officers in order to acquaint them with the realities of staff work. The big complicating factor was the US could expect to make deep inroads but would be most unlikely in the extreme to expel the British from the vital regions giving rise to the oft repeated comment "They cannot defend it but we cannot conquer it."

By the 20th Century the advent of motor transport was beginning to make the whole thing loom a lot more simple and it is likely this as much as the already very good relations with Britain and Canada that led to the shelving of War Plan Red in the late 1930s it does just not serve its old purpose as a challenging training exercise any more.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Basically an invasion of Canada falls down on travel time. It's too far through the Canadian wilderness to get to important places, the Brits can ship in reinforcements by sea faster than the US can get things there by land.
 
It is not ASB but nor is it a case of a few lucky breaks for the US and a little bad luck for the British, that neatly sums up the War of 1812 which gave America its National song about not losing a fort in Maryland.

I think the user was talking about the ARW, had there not been a Quebec Act then I highly doubt the British would retain Quebec under those circumstances.

The invasion of Canada was a subject of intense study for the US War Department and Department of the Navy in the latter half of the 19th century, not because they expected it but because they expected it to be hard and it thus made a deliciously challenging task for young officers in order to acquaint them with the realities of staff work. The big complicating factor was the US could expect to make deep inroads but would be most unlikely in the extreme to expel the British from the vital regions giving rise to the oft repeated comment "They cannot defend it but we cannot conquer it."

Such as?

That gets Quebec, possibly. The Maritimes?

NS had a fair number of Patriots since the British have more rebellions to deal with, they would find it harder to defend the Maritimes. Likewise even if they did I would expect the Americans to do something about that one way or another due to its location.

I would expect the British to retain NFL though in this war, whether they retain in the very-long term is questionable.
 
No it's not if anything it's asb that america had such positive relations with the british.
I've always thought much of 19th and 20th century Anglo-American history makes more sense if you see it as Britain and America recognising how fundamentally similar they are to the other power and desperately scrabbling to differentiate themselves.

1812 America: "King George is the same bloodthirsty authoritarian tyrant we overthrew before! Good luck in your invasion of Russia, Emperor Napoleon!"

1854 America: "It's disgusting how the upper classes of Britain tyrannise the lower! Hopefully Autocrat of All the Russias Nicholas I and his army of serfs will give them what for!"

1866 Britain: "The £7 borough rental* franchise would open the floodgates of democracy and throw the country into the unsteady hands of the working classes! £6 rating* is a far safer measure!"

*If you're curious as to what these terms mean, I suggest you forget it and go enjoy the sunshine.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Even if the Americans take Halifax?
That's kind of the place I was talking about.
The Brits can get reinforcements to Halifax in the event of hostilities with a turnaround time of about three weeks, and the fort at Halifax was continuously modernized. I don't think it's vulnerable at any point.
 
American revolution I guess has a shot. The problem is that unlike the 13 colonies the population Canada (at that time really still New France) dont really want to join the revolt becuase they are afraid that they will lose the rights to language (French) and religion (Catholicism) that the British had given them. Taking Canada in this war would be a conquest not a revolution. The French also want the UK to maintain control of Canada during the revolutionary war (as a means to balence the US in north America) and the Revolutionaries are pretty dependent on French support, in particular needing the French Navy to challenge the Royal Navy (See Yorktown for a great example of a direct effect of the French Navy on the American Revolution). However I doubt the French would actually withdraw support just on the basis of the US taking Canada, their primary goal was to use the Revolution as a means to inflict a humiliating defeat on the British and with the US having enough troops on the ground and the backing of a European Great Power I would argue the Revolution is perhaps the best early date for the US to conquer all or most of Canada.


In the War of 1812, it wouldn't be hard to get the most of Canada up to Quebec City conquered by US troops. The American army and militia far outnumber the British regulars and Canadian militia. To be blunt the US forces SHOULD have conquered much of Canada, they were just kneecapped by incopentent leadership (eg. Hull at Detroit) and a general unwillingness of the militia to fight on foreign territory as well as an irrational fear of Britian's Native Allies (See Queenston Heights and Detroit). The real challenge in the US conquering Canada in 1812 is being able to hold it after Napolean is defeated. Now they face a Great Britain that has defeated all its enemies in Europe and is in a dominant position. With Napolean gone, they are able to deploy the large, well equipped and battle hardened Peninsular Army (perhaps under Wellington) to North America and with the Royal Navy freed up by no longer having to blockade France and fight Napoleon's forces at sea, they can now impose a really crippling blockade on the US. In this situation the US faces a fully mobilized Great Britain and has no possibility of having another European power intervene on the US's behalf like in the Revolutionary war. Considering they managed to hold their own at this point against a newly minted Superpower, I think the Americans did very well here. Maybe a few more Canadian victories would have gotten a more favorable US/Canada western border in negotiations after the war (54-40 or Fight!), but I dont see the US rally having much of a shot at outright conquering the already populated areas of Canada here, they just don't have the strength to do so

The Civil War seems like the worst possible time for the US to invade Canada, do they really want to bring Britain (and France as Napolean III told London that he was willing to declare war on the US if he had British support- mainly because the US was opposed to his intervention in Mexico) in to the war against them while the country is tearing itself apart. The British wouldn't even have to put boots on the ground to seriously hinder Union war efforts, as they would have a big effect just by making the Union pull forces from fighting the confederacy to guard the Canadian border. Also the RN would quickly break the Union blockade of the Confederacy and establish their own blockade of the Union. This is probably the single worst time in the 19th century for the Union to make a play to conquer Canada.

The Venezuela crisis in 1895 was probably the last time there was really any chance of a war between the UK and the US and if war did break out the US (now the world's biggest industrial power) probably would be able to conquer Canada pretty quickly and the UK wouldn't really be able to do anything to prevent that. Although the USN is still dwarfed by the RN and the US would once again face a British blockade, so I dunno how much of Canada the US would eventually manage to keep at the eventual peace negotiations.

In the 20th Century the US can conquer Canada pretty easily and by the 1920s Britain cant really do anything about it (See the US War Plan Red). A WW1 exhausted Britain wouldn't even be able to control the seas as the US would eventually be able to just out build them. Of course by the 20th century US-UK relations are pretty good and there really isn't much of an opportunity to get a casus beli to invade Canada, although the US certainly had the military power to do so.

So the issue is that in general, as US military power grows throughout the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, the political and public will to up and invade Canada diminishes as relations with the UK improve (and ever increasing economic ties to Canada itself make an invasion even more unlikely- it is to this day the largest bilateral trading relationship between any two countries on Earth). By the late 1930's Roosevelt is making a public declaration that any foreign power (aimed at Germany) attempting to invade Canada would face a declaration of war from the US (See Roosevelt's Kingston Address).

In my opinion the invasion of Canada has its best opportunities for success in the American revolution or perhaps during the Venezuela Crisis (if there is enough political will for it)

Therefore it was was certainly NOT an American Sealion, which had exactly 0% chance of success, as the Germans didn't even have real landing crafts, forget about air or sea control. Indeed the river barges from the Rhine they planned to use to transport the troops would be sunk just by the wake of a passing ship, meaning the RN could sink the lot without even have to fire a shot. Even if they miraculusly got the barges to the shore of England (mind you with tanks or heavy artillery as the barges couldn't handle that in the Channel, so the Germans would pretty much have to rely on infantry to conquer Southern England) there was no way to resupply the invasion force, as once the RN Home Fleet reached the channel, the Germans simply didn't have the surface ships or planes to stop the British from sinking everything with a Swastika. Even Hitler, who was a terrible strategist, saw what a dismal failure this plan would be and called it off. The British and German militaries actually wargamed out Sea Lion in the 70's. Their conclusion was that it was a "Dunkirk in reverse".
 
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The eternal question for that is, them and what navy?

Quebec City and Halifax.

That's kind of the place I was talking about.
The Brits can get reinforcements to Halifax in the event of hostilities with a turnaround time of about three weeks, and the fort at Halifax was continuously modernized. I don't think it's vulnerable at any point.

In that case, all the Americans need to do is build a half-decent navy to succeed I suppose. But do you agree that if the Americans could take Halifax the British cannot doo too much about it?
 
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