Is Albert Sidney Johnston overated?

Jeff Davis considered him the best general he had until RE Lee. But what did he do that was so great? As far as I can tell he did little but get his butt kicked by US Grant and die in the Battle of Shiloh. Is there something I am missing? True Grant was the best general in the war but just because you lose to the best doesn't necessarily make you good. I would be totally creamed by Micheal Jordon in his prime but that doesn't make me great. I would still be lousy at basketball. I would just be someone lousy at basketball creamed by MJ.
 
Jeff Davis considered him the best general he had until RE Lee. But what did he do that was so great? As far as I can tell he did little but get his butt kicked by US Grant and die in the Battle of Shiloh. Is there something I am missing? True Grant was the best general in the war but just because you lose to the best doesn't necessarily make you good. I would be totally creamed by Micheal Jordon in his prime but that doesn't make me great. I would still be lousy at basketball. I would just be someone lousy at basketball creamed by MJ.

Sidney's record is at best a might-have-been fantasy (even more than Joe's) and at worst an actual example of pretty consistent failure.

Even allowing for all the difficulties he faced, he did not handle the situation - such as for instance the issue of whether the Tennessee was defended - very well.
 
Sidney's record is at best a might-have-been fantasy (even more than Joe's) and at worst an actual example of pretty consistent failure.

Even allowing for all the difficulties he faced, he did not handle the situation - such as for instance the issue of whether the Tennessee was defended - very well.


Yeah, basicly he didn't check out the Forts Henry and Donelson to make sure they were well situated, built and supplied. He then gives the command to Floyd who was a political general with no military experience. Floyd attempts to counterattack Grant and then orders his men back to the trenches the moment things go wrong even though they made a partial breakthrough. If Floyd pressed on he probably would have escaped with at least some of his men. After this Floyd surrenders the next day despite being in a fortress. Then came Shiloh where he disregarded Beauregard's advice of not fighting there. Instead of bypassing a sunken road which was a good defensive position for the Union he assaults it at least 8 times. He then dies by leading a charge which is not the job of a full general.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Yes, A.S. Johnston is massively overrated. His strategic missteps in early 1862 basically cost the Confederacy that part of Kentucky which it held as well as West and most of Central Tennessee.
 
Sidney's record is at best a might-have-been fantasy (even more than Joe's) and at worst an actual example of pretty consistent failure.

Even allowing for all the difficulties he faced, he did not handle the situation - such as for instance the issue of whether the Tennessee was defended - very well.

Yeah, basicly he didn't check out the Forts Henry and Donelson to make sure they were well situated, built and supplied. He then gives the command to Floyd who was a political general with no military experience. Floyd attempts to counterattack Grant and then orders his men back to the trenches the moment things go wrong even though they made a partial breakthrough. If Floyd pressed on he probably would have escaped with at least some of his men. After this Floyd surrenders the next day despite being in a fortress. Then came Shiloh where he disregarded Beauregard's advice of not fighting there. Instead of bypassing a sunken road which was a good defensive position for the Union he assaults it at least 8 times. He then dies by leading a charge which is not the job of a full general.

Yes, A.S. Johnston is massively overrated. His strategic missteps in early 1862 basically cost the Confederacy that part of Kentucky which it held as well as West and most of Central Tennessee.

I think his career was too short to really know what kind of general he would have been in the long run, if he had survived. Most of the generals had a "learning curve" at the beginning of the war and made mistakes of one sort or another. After all, just about all of these guys were men who had, at most, led a regiment (or in some rare cases, A.S. Johnston included, an ad hoc brigade) prior to the war, and found themselves in command of armies made up of equally inexperienced subordinate commanders and raw recruits. Johnston fared worse in that regard than the commanders in Virginia did...it is a fact that the main army in Virginia pretty much got the cream of the crop in men, equipment, and officers, with whatever was left over going to Johnston in the west.


Johnston was also handicapped in that was essentially given an impossible task. He was given a front stretching for several hundred miles to defend with a force about the same size as that defending northern Virginia. The very size of the area he was assigned to defend made it basically impossible for him to personally visit every post within that territory...or even all of the most important ones. Remember, most of these places weren't connected to rail lines, which means days or weeks in the saddle to get to them. He was basically forced to delegate large responsibilities to subordinate commanders who proved not to be up to the task. Thus you had situations like Forts Henry and Donelson (incidentally, John Floyd DID have military experience, having commanded in the Mexican War. He had also served as Secretary of War. He thus had a reputation for knowledge of military affairs which was, as it turned out, completely undeserved).

As for Shiloh, Beauregard screwed that up, not Johnston. Johnston had designed a plan of attack which could very well have avoided most of the pitfalls which plagued the Confederate assault on the first day. Beauregard instead substituted a plan of his own which was overly complex and which ensured that units would become mixed up in the wooded terrain and that commanders on the field would not be able to retain control of their troops. Beauregard's adjutant, Colonel Jordan, also screwed up the plans for the march from Corinth to Shiloh, which caused the Confederates to arrive there 1-2 days later than they would have if Old Borry and his adjutant hadn't been there. If the battle had been fought 1-2 days earlier, as Johnston intended, Buell's Army of the Ohio would not have been close enough to intervene. And yes, the Hornet's nest was a mistake, seen in retrospect. However, it would have been considered sound military tactics by the standards of the day, which dictated that one did not leave fortresses in one's rear. The Hornet's Nest was essentially a fortress from which the Yankees could have mounted an attack on Johnston's exposed flank or rear if he had bypassed it. "Infiltration" tactics where one bypasses strongpoints and exploits weak places in the enemy lines didn't come around until World War One.

I don't know that Johnston would have proved to be a great general if he had survived Shiloh. We really don't know because he was killed so early in the war. I can't help thinking that he would have turned out better than Braxton Bragg, though.
 
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Yes, as he only participated in one major battle where instead of directing the whole thing he acted like a regimental commander. His reactions before that battle were completely indecisive and there was a reason that P.G.T. Beauregard both directed the battle plan and the actual battle. That reason being that A.S. Johnston was not suited for his level of command.
 
As for Shiloh, Beauregard screwed that up, not Johnston. Johnston had designed a plan of attack which could very well have avoided most of the pitfalls which plagued the Confederate assault on the first day. Beauregard instead substituted a plan of his own which was overly complex and which ensured that units would become mixed up in the wooded terrain and that commanders on the field would not be able to retain control of their troops. Beauregard's adjutant, Colonel Jordan, also screwed up the plans for the march from Corinth to Shiloh, which caused the Confederates to arrive there 1-2 days later than they would have if Old Borry and his adjutant hadn't been there. If the battle had been fought 1-2 days earlier, as Johnston intended, Buell's Army of the Ohio would not have been close enough to intervene. And yes, the Hornet's nest was a mistake, seen in retrospect. However, it would have been considered sound military tactics by the standards of the day, which dictated that one did not leave fortresses in one's rear. The Hornet's Nest was essentially a fortress from which the Yankees could have mounted an attack on Johnston's exposed flank or rear if he had bypassed it. "Infiltration" tactics where one bypasses strongpoints and exploits weak places in the enemy lines didn't come around until World War One.

I don't know that Johnston would have proved to be a great general if he had survived Shiloh. We really don't know because he was killed so early in the war. I can't help thinking that he would have turned out better than Braxton Bragg, though.

Beauregard directed the battle from first to last, Johnston was a glorified regimental commander and played no role in gathering all Confederate troops and was rather hesitant to actually fight at Pittsburg Landing until he got overconfident at the start. From first to last at Pittsburg Landing Beauregard directed the battle, and Union resistance from first to last was sanguinary enough that the Confederate army was never able to press its serious assaults even without the Hornet's Nest. The Confederacy also benefited from the inability of Lew Wallace to follow a straight line and the eccentricity of Bull Nelson, a US commander killed by Jefferson Davis. Had all of Grant's army been on the field that day, what the battle would look like would favor the Union more, not less.

A.S. Johnston built a thin cordon defense that between them Grant and Thomas caved in, and his reaction was one of indecision and vacillation, which was one reason Grant was confident enough to station his army that close to Corinth, Mississippi in the first place. Johnston bungled his handling of the Henry-Donelson fighting and proceeded to really screw up at Pittsburg Landing. Sure, he might have been a better general than Bragg, or on the other hand his indecision and inability to decide to do or not to do one or another thing might have made him actually worse than Bragg.
 
As for Shiloh, Beauregard screwed that up, not Johnston. Johnston had designed a plan of attack which could very well have avoided most of the pitfalls which plagued the Confederate assault on the first day. Beauregard instead substituted a plan of his own which was overly complex and which ensured that units would become mixed up in the wooded terrain and that commanders on the field would not be able to retain control of their troops. Beauregard's adjutant, Colonel Jordan, also screwed up the plans for the march from Corinth to Shiloh, which caused the Confederates to arrive there 1-2 days later than they would have if Old Borry and his adjutant hadn't been there. If the battle had been fought 1-2 days earlier, as Johnston intended, Buell's Army of the Ohio would not have been close enough to intervene. And yes, the Hornet's nest was a mistake, seen in retrospect. However, it would have been considered sound military tactics by the standards of the day, which dictated that one did not leave fortresses in one's rear. The Hornet's Nest was essentially a fortress from which the Yankees could have mounted an attack on Johnston's exposed flank or rear if he had bypassed it. "Infiltration" tactics where one bypasses strongpoints and exploits weak places in the enemy lines didn't come around until World War One.

I don't know that Johnston would have proved to be a great general if he had survived Shiloh. We really don't know because he was killed so early in the war. I can't help thinking that he would have turned out better than Braxton Bragg, though.


Johnston was still responsible. Why did he allow Beauregard "substitute" his plan with Beauregard's own? Either 1) He thought Beauregard's plan was superior to his own and allowed his plans to be changed. If that is the case Johnston either had a worse plan than Beauregard or he mistakenly thought Beauregard had the better plan when he didn't. In either case he is responsible. or worse 2) Was such a mouse that he let a subordinate run roughshod over him and take over his army. In that case he REALLY wasn't fit for command! Could you see Grant allowing a subordinate change his orders without his knowledge?
 
Ya'll should come down to Texas some time. Albert Sidney Johnston is almost as overrated in East Texas as Lee is in the rest of the South.
 
Ya'll should come down to Texas some time. Albert Sidney Johnston is almost as overrated in East Texas as Lee is in the rest of the South.

Wow! What do they base that opinion on? He was involved in all of one major battle in which he was killed and was lost in any case. Dying on the field of battle does not in and of itself make you a great general. At least he was better than Floyd who panicked, got himself besieged, and cowardly slunk off leaving his subordinate behind to face the music.
 
Wow! What do they base that opinion on? He was involved in all of one major battle in which he was killed and was lost in any case. Dying on the field of battle does not in and of itself make you a great general. At least he was better than Floyd who panicked, got himself besieged, and cowardly slunk off leaving his subordinate behind to face the music.

More that he directly commanded to one and contributed to another that was an epic disaster. The only result of his re-inforcing Fort Donelson was to give Grant a huge number of troops captured in the fighting there. At least Joe Johnston gave the Confederacy some hope and displayed some tactical and strategic sense. A.S. Johnston's career is not an encouraging one for the future had he survived.
 
More that he directly commanded to one and contributed to another that was an epic disaster. The only result of his re-inforcing Fort Donelson was to give Grant a huge number of troops captured in the fighting there. At least Joe Johnston gave the Confederacy some hope and displayed some tactical and strategic sense. A.S. Johnston's career is not an encouraging one for the future had he survived.

In fairness, he did occasionally handle affairs above the regimental at Shiloh, occasionally going even to division commander levels. I'd in all seriousness compare him to a particularly likely-to-die-at-the-front brigadier.

A district commander about fits his level of incompetence, at most, outside of that.
 
In fairness, he did occasionally handle affairs above the regimental at Shiloh, occasionally going even to division commander levels. I'd in all seriousness compare him to a particularly likely-to-die-at-the-front brigadier.

A district commander about fits his level of incompetence, at most, outside of that.

If he retains theater command his indecisiveness could well propel the Western armies to an even more unbroken string of victories than OTL because he just can't decide what to do or not to do and when he does decide it's too little and too late.
 
If he retains theater command his indecisiveness could well propel the Western armies to an even more unbroken string of victories than OTL because he just can't decide what to do or not to do and when he does decide it's too little and too late.

Yeah. Bragg, bad as he was in some areas, generally had his army in the right place at the right time, at least strategically.

Johnston couldn't even concentrate properly post-Donelson.
 
Yeah. Bragg, bad as he was in some areas, generally had his army in the right place at the right time, at least strategically.

Johnston couldn't even concentrate properly post-Donelson.

Or during Donelson, for that matter. The decision to re-inforce the garrison there was his, and if he was going to do that it should have been his entire army aiming for a decisive victory of the sort that would have limited the damage of the fall of Henry, or withdrawing further south and not fighting for Fort Donelson at all. He tried to divide the baby in half and got the worst of both worlds. His full army at the Fort against Grant's troops at that time could actually have produced a major Confederate victory. By dividing his army and putting a significant part of it at Donelson that was poorly led and not sufficient to either break out or to seek a crushing victory against Grant's army he set up both a major Confederate territorial loss and by the capture of the garrison weakening his own forces beforehand. Those 17,000 captured troops could have led to a potentially different outcome at Pittsburg Landing or at the very least strengthened the overall Confederate position in the Mississippi River Theater.
 
Or during Donelson, for that matter. The decision to re-inforce the garrison there was his, and if he was going to do that it should have been his entire army aiming for a decisive victory of the sort that would have limited the damage of the fall of Henry, or withdrawing further south and not fighting for Fort Donelson at all. He tried to divide the baby in half and got the worst of both worlds. His full army at the Fort against Grant's troops at that time could actually have produced a major Confederate victory. By dividing his army and putting a significant part of it at Donelson that was poorly led and not sufficient to either break out or to seek a crushing victory against Grant's army he set up both a major Confederate territorial loss and by the capture of the garrison weakening his own forces beforehand. Those 17,000 captured troops could have led to a potentially different outcome at Pittsburg Landing or at the very least strengthened the overall Confederate position in the Mississippi River Theater.

One of the reasons I do not regard "But it was a hard position" as an excuse for the mistakes he made. Sidney had an amazing talent for making decisions that made his problems worse, like trusting subordinates to do something vitally important without even trying to check up to see if it was being done.
 
One of the reasons I do not regard "But it was a hard position" as an excuse for the mistakes he made. Sidney had an amazing talent for making decisions that made his problems worse, like trusting subordinates to do something vitally important without even trying to check up to see if it was being done.

Not to mention that the decision made the problems of the entire Confederacy worse. It might be claimed that it would be difficult to hold all of that, sure, but when your solution is to both give the Union three major victories in succession *and* carves a full 17,000 troops out of your army as essentially a gift to the Union........no, that is not a sign of anything except being overrated.
 
Not to mention that the decision made the problems of the entire Confederacy worse. It might be claimed that it would be difficult to hold all of that, sure, but when your solution is to both give the Union three major victories in succession *and* carves a full 17,000 troops out of your army as essentially a gift to the Union........no, that is not a sign of anything except being overrated.

Yeah. Everyone makes mistakes, but these kind of mistakes indicate a fundamental sort of "doesn't get it" rather than merely inexperience.

"Concentrate thy forces" has been a military dictum forever for good reason.
 
Yeah. Everyone makes mistakes, but these kind of mistakes indicate a fundamental sort of "doesn't get it" rather than merely inexperience.

"Concentrate thy forces" has been a military dictum forever for good reason.

Not to mention that selecting the right commander for the right job at the very least needs to be given due thought in that kind of situation. Generals do mess up like that, Grant did at Second Petersburg, but in this specific situation Sidney Johnston had a lot of hype to live up to and failed abysmally to live up to any of it.
 
Wow! What do they base that opinion on? He was involved in all of one major battle in which he was killed and was lost in any case. Dying on the field of battle does not in and of itself make you a great general. At least he was better than Floyd who panicked, got himself besieged, and cowardly slunk off leaving his subordinate behind to face the music.

Basically, during the "Lost Cause" era, Texas needed a Confederate hero, and it didn't have too many good options. Shiloh was retconned into a Confederate Victory, and Johnston was rewritten as a martyred hero who died on the field of battle.
 
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