Irsh Empire Idea

Irish Empire Idea

While the idea of Ireland itself becoming a major power has largely been discredited, I was left thinking about how many Irish emmigrants there were and got an idea. What if the Irish were able to get to North America (or somewhere similiarly colonisiable) first, would they be able to get a large enough colonial population to have a culturally Irish major power with most of the population in the colonies? Or would this sort of a situation likely fall apart into numerous Celtophone states?
 
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scholar

Banned
You do know that most of the immigration came from oppressive governments and widespread famine, correct? If you want a Tyrant for a King in Ireland then this might happen, however if Ireland is unified under a strong, but not oppressive, government then this won't happen. I can see small settlements and maybe even something along the lines of Dutch colonies (in terms of size) inside the new world. It wouldn't be the next America, because to have an America you need a very powerful mother country pouring time, effort, funds, and troops into it.

And if they were getting their first, then the Irish would go for the Caribbean, not North America proper except for maybe south of the line of Virginia.
 
I have actually been thinking about this for a long time, and to say that it is impossible (which i know some people will say) in any universe, i think is a discredit to the massive ethnically irish population around the world, and to creativity itself.

I think that for Ireland to have the mass exodus that it did with some idea of nationality and unity, they would need some nation to oppress them, like England. However, the issue becomes time period. By the time of the potato famine where most irish immigrated elsewhere, there was nowhere to claim as a new ireland. There is a small possibility that if, perhaps, the american revolution failed, and during one of the many irish revolutions in the homeland, some in america rose up and created their own irish nation-state. something similar might happen in australia. i guess the success of the new irish nation would depend on the amount of british military presence in the area.

If ireland remained independent, i think it would be safe to assume that the Irish High Kingship would try a hand at colonization. However, the disunity of pre-norman conquest ireland would have some deep roots in a free irish society, and these colonies, at least i don't think, would hail to the High King, but would probably become autonomous gaelic speaking nations. If Ireland was more unified, the story might be different. There would surely be serious competition with Britain in the colonization game, as well as spain, france, portugal, and the netherlands depending on where the irish decide to colonize.
 
Hurling would be a major world game in an Irish empire. The total world Irish population is about 70 million, obviously including those of Irish descent. If you factor in our land mass including the sea, we 'own' we are in the top 5 sizewise in the EU! The Norwegians who are worldwide experts in oil-gas exploration belief there is phenomenal oil-gas deposits around our coast, however none has been found to date.
Unfortunately, knowing my native country as I do an Irish empire would be analguous to the old Richard Daley's Chicago, not his sons' one by the way!
Most Irish people were Democrat supporters in the States to the core up until Reagan traditionally and those living in Ireland even more so. However that support went to Southern Democrats or cracked Northern Democrats up until Kennedy. One supreme irony is the Irish at home were very much right wing conservative doctrinal catholics/protestants. Post 1960 the Irish in the states were very often great liberals, also virtually to a man and woman, the Irish in the uk were and are labour supporters, once that party became established!
 
Ireland for most of its history was divided, it had no natural resources and had a low population. It was doomed to take it up the rear end from whoever was dominant in Britain.
 
By the way as I have said in my OP on W I There Was No Irish Emigration, the world including Ireland would be substantially different, certainly the English speaking side and Argentina oddly. There would be an America still, but certainly not a United States as we know it, jim!
 
While the idea of Ireland itself becoming a major power has largely been discredited, I was left thinking about how many Irish emmigrants there were and got an idea. What if the Irish were able to get to North America (or somewhere similiarly colonisiable) first, would they be able to get a large enough colonial population to have a culturally Irish major power with most of the population in the colonies? Or would this sort of a situation likely fall apart into numerous Celtophone states?
Groundwork was laid in #330 and #353 of The Raptor of Spain. When the current arc is finished we'll go back to them. I haven't forgotten them and some massive butterflies have begun to flap in the New World. Here they reached northern North America analogous to the vikings but possessing better navigation and naval technology relative to OTL's vikings in the period, they found and took advantage of the Grand Banks fisheries.
 
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Ireland for most of its history was divided, it had no natural resources and had a low population. It was doomed to take it up the rear end from whoever was dominant in Britain.

I disagree. Slightly.

Everything you can say geographically about Ireland and why it's unlikely to achieve anything can be applied almost equally well to Portugal. In fact, while Ireland is further off the path of European trade routes, it is better positioned for good fishing and at least as fertile.

Portugal's survival with the great sheep- and then silver-driven behemoth of Spain next door may have seemed unlikely, but it happened.

Ireland, with a very different early history, could have been involved with some intra-European trading and performed a large proportion of continental fishing. With real luck - and let's face it all of the early voyages of exploration involved a lot of luck - it could have a leader to encourage exploration early in the process and a few ships coming back laden with exotic goods.

That will not put Ireland in the same position as England, France, Spain, or even the Netherlands, but it doesn't need to be. Historically, it took very little mass in the home country to back a successful colonization - even of very large and populous areas. In favorable circumstances it might found a colonial empire on the scale of the Portuguese or Dutch. Certainly it could do just as well as did Denmark, Sweden, and later Belgium.
 
Ireland, with a very different early history, could have been involved with some intra-European trading and performed a large proportion of continental fishing. With real luck - and let's face it all of the early voyages of exploration involved a lot of luck - it could have a leader to encourage exploration early in the process and a few ships coming back laden with exotic goods.

I believe I mentioned this on another Ireland-related thread, but during the late dark ages and early middle ages, Dublin was the largest slave port in the world. And this isn't really because of Irish slaves (it started out so). Dublin began as a Viking fortress and port. They initially sold Irish slaves, but when the Irish began to adopt Viking tendencies themselves, many of the slaves sold there were Picts, Brits, and Slavs (the word slave comes from Slav). If the slave trade in Dublin had kept strong somehow, along with other Irish products, then I think Ireland would have quite some interest in North America and later Africa, much like the Dutch.

However, my Gaelophilia refuses to allow me to think that the Irish would ever taint their honor so much! ;)
 

Sandmannius

Banned
I believe I mentioned this on another Ireland-related thread, but during the late dark ages and early middle ages, Dublin was the largest slave port in the world. And this isn't really because of Irish slaves (it started out so). Dublin began as a Viking fortress and port. They initially sold Irish slaves, but when the Irish began to adopt Viking tendencies themselves, many of the slaves sold there were Picts, Brits, and Slavs (the word slave comes from Slav). If the slave trade in Dublin had kept strong somehow, along with other Irish products, then I think Ireland would have quite some interest in North America and later Africa, much like the Dutch.

However, my Gaelophilia refuses to allow me to think that the Irish would ever taint their honor so much! ;)

Do you have any sources for your claim about Dublin? And :confused: the Dutch were barely interested in North America or Africa.
 
Hmmm.. At first I was like impossible but Now it might be possible for Eire to survive.... During the Viking invasion of Britain have the Norse bleed England
dry, slaughtering 90 percent of it's population..... Spreading famine and terror, butterfly away Canute, this would lead to a very grim world for Britain.... Then have the Vikings decimate Scotland as well or split Scotland into feuding tribes, then have a military genius rise up in some Irish province and unite Eire the same way Clovis united the barbaric Franks..... Buttery away famine as well...... Have this ruler build
monuments of glory to cement his power
like Ivan III of Russia, plus have him trade with the Danes opening Eire up to Shipbuilding and soon create a fleet.... By the 12th century Viking power is over in Britain seizing this opp some defendant launches an invasion of he Isles and soon seizes Wales and England. Meanwhile have Eire develop much like Rome with Monuments, etc and well by 13th century see an Irish power in the Isles and with it's arcitecture and imposing monuments make Dublin stand out from the rest of the world like Rome..... This will give you a succesful Eire wank......:):):) I have just explained to you a way to make Eire a major power....;)
 
I was working on this myself, and came up with a pretty good motivation: Vikings! Seriously, nothing motivates people to get out the hell out of Dodge like well armed angry men who will steal everything not nailed down and burn the rest. The concept I had was that a couple of monasteries would completely uproot and flee across the ocean to Iceland or Greenland. However, the vikings, being the competent sailors they were, would simple follow them, forcing the monks to flee even further, and eventually down the North American coastline. Once the Viking raids died down, you'd have the basis of colonies, especially if some of those Vikings also settled down and assimilated.
 
In a sense the Irish built a humanitarian empire in the developing world with huge contribution to procuring medical and educational facilities there and for better or worse christianity.
Irish monks brought or reinvigorated christianity in Europe shortly after we were christianised.
I heard it said Irish monks were also the first settlers in Iceland.
An Irish aid worker said recently a Danish colleague ( Denmark has roughly the same population size) said where ever he goes he meets a real Irish person but that is certainly not the case wrt to his fellow country persons, whom he rarely encounters abroad!
Also it is said that Whereas other countrys bring weapons to developing nations the Irish bring aid.
Actually by far the most positive trait in Irish people is that as a fairly universal rule here we like to see ourselves as a friend to the world, of course it's not always true in reality, especially if like us, you support CAP and trade inbalances!
 
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