Irritating clichés about Pre-1900 AH

[Elfwine]

Another one: Nationalism erupts as violently in the 19th century on schedule, even without an analogue to the Napoleonic Wars.

I propose
"Developments OTL for no reason, even when the POD would alter the whole political picture." in general.

Protestantism, republics, nationalism (as you just said)...

 

[The Ubbergeek]

does Nationalism really need a Napy? I means, it's based on old ideas, the nations and cultures and later, the Romantic kinda anti-Lumières ideas...

it would have came out one day, maybe, inevitable in parts...

 

[QuoProQuid]

Communist Russia Super Motherland - Another one that's kind of annoying. Russia after WWI must be Communist. There is no alternative. Certainly the White armies, if they had managed to organize, couldn't resist the MIGHTY SUPER DOOM ARMIES OF TROTSKY!
...Except that the Bolsheviks nearly bought it at Petrograd when the Whites surrounded them once...Only to fall apart because they couldn't agree on who was in charge.
(OK, maybe that's a little past 1900, but 1918 is close enough to the 19th century for me )

Russia-stereotype - A bit related to the above, but it seems that if Russia isn't a brutal communist regime, it's a brutal monarchist regime. Full of drunkards. And they're all idiots. Because never in Russia was there a sober man who wrote plays or painted, and Russians certainly didn't invent anything useful, like, say, rebar. Or electric arc welding.

Thanks for mentioning those two. I really hate those cliches.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Related to the 'whatever'-screw, but I find this one most annoying of all:

Anglowank! - Sure, France, Italy, Spain, the Americas, Poland, and so forth tend to get screwed a lot, but you know who ends up doing the screwing most of the time? The Brits!
I've noticed that much of the English-speaking world seems to have this conception in their heads that past about 1600, England was basically destined to rule the world until 1945. All armies will wither before them, their massive, throbbing, manho-...navy will crush all resistance, and their economy will destroy all others.

Perhaps it's just because I tend to read history a lot, but this certainly isn't even limited to alternate history. Try asking the average person who won the Napoleonic Wars. If the answer isn't "huh?" it will probably be "Wellington at Waterloo."

Corollary: Any invasion of Britain post-1066 is doomed as a certain sea mammal. This wasn't even the case in OTL, with Louis VIII of France (then only the heir to the throne) very nearly snatching the English throne from the Plantagenets. And England/Britain's navy is not invincible - the Armada was a bit of luck.

Russia-stereotype - A bit related to the above, but it seems that if Russia isn't a brutal communist regime, it's a brutal monarchist regime. Full of drunkards. And they're all idiots. Because never in Russia was there a sober man who wrote plays or painted, and Russians certainly didn't invent anything useful, like, say, rebar. Or electric arc welding.

Russia is always a backwater full of men in beards and silly hats who abuse peasants and aren't important to the story. In fact, they usually aren't even mentioned except as being cruel and stupid.

Sadly, Peter the Great's legacy is swept under the rug in favor of drunken Russians.

I propose
"Developments OTL for no reason, even when the POD would alter the whole political picture." in general.

Protestantism, republics, nationalism (as you just said)...

All depends on the POD. A 1500 POD will likely see the Reformation (what with the Church really getting decadent at this point), but it won't likely begin with Martin Luther nailing his 95 theses on the Wittenberg church door as in OTL.

 

[Johnrankins]

Why would they want to abolish it again?

It isn't uneconomical. It is supported by ideological justification of it as a positive good and opposition to free blacks and fear of what they'd do.

And that the CSA would abruptly care about it being a subject of international disdain when the culture in question was not willing to accept that earlier and found even discussion of emancipation a threat is just hard to accept.

More to the point the men who risked their lives and saw their friends die preserving it are not going to just sit there and allow it to be abolished. In 1870 they are definitely young enough to do something about it. Even if by some miracle FL would outlaw slavery de jure it was impossible for it to outlaw slavery de facto because the Dredd Scott decision was basically enshrined in the CSA Constitution!

 

[Elfwine]

All depends on the POD. A 1500 POD will likely see the Reformation (what with the Church really getting decadent at this point), but it won't likely begin with Martin Luther nailing his 95 theses on the Wittenberg church door as in OTL.

Yeah. I'm just using it to mean when people are sloppy about whether a given POD is going to majorly mess up things or not.

In 1500 the differences will be in the details, with a 1300 POD the changes could be hard to see as "like OTL".

More to the point the men who risked their lives and saw their friends die preserving it are not going to just sit there and allow it to be abolished. In 1870 they are definitely young enough to do something about it. Even if by some miracle FL would outlaw slavery de jure it was impossible for it to outlaw slavery de facto because the Dredd Scott decision was basically enshrined in the CSA Constitution!

I'm not sure if its quite that. Its that those men are going to be the ones who would be acting to abolish it - which is even more unbelievable.

 

[Badshah]

Islamic states tend to do less well than Christian states, probably because the latter benefit from Europe is Better ideas.

Related to the issue of Egypt, but covering the Muslim world in general. There are not many timelines where Islam is the religion of the most advanced societies in the early modern period, let alone later.

In our map game, its sort of working like that. The main powers are Sindhenasia (India), Cochinchina, (Muslim Vietnam and Southern China), Ottoman Empire, Persia, Mamluk Caliphate (Egypt) and Algiers being the dominant powers.

 

[Elfwine]

In our map game, its sort of working like that. The main powers are Sindhenasia (India), Cochinchina, (Muslim Vietnam and Southern China), Ottoman Empire, Persia, Mamluk Caliphate (Egypt) and Algiers being the dominant powers.

That's pretty cool. Though, Mamluk Caliphate? What?

I know the Mamelukes (OTL) had a puppet Abbasid, but imagining them declaring that their sultans are the real caliphs is really weird.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

How about The British Empire Ends Up As A Commonwealth joining hands and singing Kumbaya?

 

[Badshah]

That's pretty cool. Though, Mamluk Caliphate? What?

I know the Mamelukes (OTL) had a puppet Abbasid, but imagining them declaring that their sultans are the real caliphs is really weird.

It was built up. They called themselves the Caliphate after a while...currently though Egypt imploded and the Ottomans snatched up the holy land and are at war with Eran (Persia).
1493 Map Game, if you want to check it out.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

that sounds like an epic map game.

 

[Johnrankins]

I'm not sure if its quite that. Its that those men are going to be the ones who would be acting to abolish it - which is even more unbelievable.

Point taken, they would be the ones in a mere 5 to 8 years are going to go against the very thing they started the whole war over. That would be going against everything they believed in. As hard as it is for modern people to believe these people thought slavery was a GOOD THING even for Blacks. As many of them saw it Black people were happier and better off being slaves then free. These people were willing to DIE to preserve slavery. Abolishing slavery would be totally unthinkable to them. Some of them would see it out and out blashphamous. One of the said something like the Yankees are trying to make equal what God himself made unequal!

 

[Badshah]

that sounds like an epic map game.

It IS a little implausible though, so take that to heart when you go check it out.

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

Russia is always a backwater full of men in beards and silly hats who abuse peasants and aren't important to the story. In fact, they usually aren't even mentioned except as being cruel and stupid.

Islamic states tend to do less well than Christian states, probably because the latter benefit from Europe is Better ideas.

Those two clichés particularly annoy me...

Not sure if it's been said, but

Pole-screw
Poland/Poland-Lithuania must always collapse/be annexed into oblivion. never mind that it was a great power in the 16th/17th centuries...

There Must Always be an Ottoman Empire
The Ottomans were incredibly lucky. It's likely that a Turkish-dominated Muslim state would have emerged at some point, but it doesn't necessarily have to be under the House of Osman

Native American Civilizations Can be Toppled by a Slight Gust of Wind
The Conquistadores also had quite a few lucky streaks (i.e. the Cortez/Quetzalcoatl confusion, which by the way now appears to be of dubious historicity; the fact that the Incas were in the middle of a civil war). Yes, smallpox will always do a number on the Americas, but the natives aren't necessarily going to roll over and take it from the Europeans even after a plague.

Roma Necessaria
Rome will always emerge no matter what goes on the Mediterranean a few centuries beforehand. Italy was not protected by a giant array of butterfly nets!

Islam Necessarily Expands like Red Wine on a White Carpet
Change one thing anywhere close to Arabia in the centuries/decades/years before Muhammad's birth and you effectively butterfly Islam/effect its growth.

 

[Elfwine]

There Must Always be an Ottoman Empire
The Ottomans were incredibly lucky. It's likely that a Turkish-dominated Muslim state would have emerged at some point, but it doesn't necessarily have to be under the House of Osman

Any examples of this one handy?

Not arguing, but I can't recall myself, so I'm wondering what timelines you have in mind.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Those two clichés particularly annoy me...

Not sure if it's been said, but

Pole-screw
Poland/Poland-Lithuania must always collapse/be annexed into oblivion. never mind that it was a great power in the 16th/17th centuries...

With an early enough POD you can even prevent the union of Krewo. However I think Poland will continue to be a relatively powerful kingdom,

There Must Always be an Ottoman Empire
The Ottomans were incredibly lucky. It's likely that a Turkish-dominated Muslim state would have emerged at some point, but it doesn't necessarily have to be under the House of Osman

Why not a Karamanid Empire? Or, you know, longer Seljuk rule?

Native American Civilizations Can be Toppled by a Slight Gust of Wind
The Conquistadores also had quite a few lucky streaks (i.e. the Cortez/Quetzalcoatl confusion, which by the way now appears to be of dubious historicity; the fact that the Incas were in the middle of a civil war). Yes, smallpox will always do a number on the Americas, but the natives aren't necessarily going to roll over and take it from the Europeans even after a plague.

The Yucatan wasn't even fully subjugated in OTL.

Roma Necessaria
Rome will always emerge no matter what goes on the Mediterranean a few centuries beforehand. Italy was not protected by a giant array of butterfly nets!

See Errnge's TL for an idea of how no Rome would change things.

 

[DGNT]

Sadly, Peter the Great's legacy is swept under the rug in favor of drunken Russians.

Although, admittedly, you're sort of asking for it when you create a parody of the Orthodox church know as the All-Joking, All-Drunken Synod of Fools and Jesters.

Sadly, Russia's fine history of monarchical antics is often ignored as well. It's always serious men with serious beards. Instead of a sociopathic Tsaritsa who forced noblewomen to marry dwarves and live in palaces made of ice.

Russia's 18th century monarchs had more character between them than most other countries got in a century.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Although, admittedly, you're sort of asking for it when you create a parody of the Orthodox church know as the All-Joking, All-Drunken Synod of Fools and Jesters.

Sadly, Russia's fine history of monarchical antics is often ignored as well. It's always serious men with serious beards. Instead of a sociopathic Tsaritsa who forced noblewomen to marry dwarves and live in palaces made of ice.

Russia's 18th century monarchs had more character between them than most other countries got in a century.

Not to mention Catherine the Great's hand in helping invent the roller coaster (i.e., she sponsored the development of wheeled carts to replace sleds).

 

[Elfwine]

Although, admittedly, you're sort of asking for it when you create a parody of the Orthodox church know as the All-Joking, All-Drunken Synod of Fools and Jesters.

Sadly, Russia's fine history of monarchical antics is often ignored as well. It's always serious men with serious beards. Instead of a sociopathic Tsaritsa who forced noblewomen to marry dwarves and live in palaces made of ice.

Russia's 18th century monarchs had more character between them than most other countries got in a century.

Alt-history in general seems to lack that kind of character. We get great men and losers but not enough eccentricity (either short of or well past the line into insanity).

 

[Thespitron 6000]

Alt-history in general seems to lack that kind of character. We get great men and losers but not enough eccentricity (either short or well past the line into insanity).

Which is odd, really, when one considers how inbred most of the royal families of Europe historically were. In my own TL, I consider Henri III to be lucky that he got off with nothing worse than being blind in one eye.