Napoleonrules
Banned
Simple PoD- For whatever reason, General Washington does not send the Sullivan Expedition with orders to (in GW's own words)- "The immediate objects are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements, and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops now in the ground and prevent their planting more." and "that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed." Perhaps this is because of a PoD making the Cherry Valley Massacre not happen.
What happens to the Iroquois nation (the Haudenosaunee) if it is not destroyed near the end of the American Revolution? Does it simply push back the inevitable? Does the Iroquois Civil War (Oneidas and Tuscaroras on American side versus the Mohawks, Cayugas, Senecas, and Onondagas) eventually end in a peaceful re-coalescing of the Iroquois nation?
I see that almost certainly there would simply be a pushing of the Haudenosaunee west regardless and White Man takes over... BUT what if... is there a way to make it where the Iroquois make a treaty with the USA, when the USA is still under the Articles of Confederacy but before the Northwest Territory Act. Could there be a way to make the Haudenosaunee stay in control of western Upstate New York and what would the repercussions be? Would the War of 1812 simply give reason to exterminate the Haudenosaunee?
I'm trying to see if there's a way to have the Haudenosaunee join as the 15th state (after Vermont and Kentucky but before Ohio and binds the Haudenosaunee to the US side when the War of 1812 occurs), and that since the Erie Canal was built solely by NY and not the Federal gov't in OTL, would there perhaps be a chance that the Haudenosaunee not want an Erie Canal and not cooperate with the powers that be in Albany. No Erie Canal means NYC does not become the gateway to the west, Buffalo, Cleveland, and Chicago do not grow as fast as they did IOTL. Railroads, which paralleled the Erie Canal and began soon after the construction of the canal (Mohawk and Hudson opened in 1831 only 6 years after canal) might not be built, might not get consolidated by Vanderbilt (turning a trip from NYC to Chicago from being one that required 17 transfers into being one continuous trainride). Without Erie Canal perhaps canals on the Ohio and Mississippi become more efficient and larger, we see Chicago, Cincinnati, and the Great Lakes being linked to New Orleans for international trade instead of NYC. A Potomac to Ohio canal (dream of George Washington) finally built, Washington DC, Baltimore, and Norfolk all gain immensely. Western railroad from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh and beyond gives Philadelphia a boost over NYC. Could this even have repercussions on Jackson's Trail of Tears if the Haudenosaunee make up even just 40% of an Iroquois state with 2 senators, what about repercussions of in the US Civil War if the economic and demographic butterflies have caused Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana to be reliant on New Orleans. IOTL New Orleans port only rivaled NYC in total tonnage because of their export tonnage of agricultural products (mostly grain), when one looks at import tonnage alone NYC crushed New Orleans, and NYC was more diverse. But no Erie Canal...
Is there a way in which this is possible?
Here's one example I can think of as causing some demographic changes if this scenario COULD happen-
OTL largest cities in 1840- / OTL largest cities in 1860-
NYC / NYC
Baltimore / Philadelphia
New Orleans / Brooklyn
Philadelphia / Baltimore
Boston / Boston
Cincinnati / New Orleans
Brooklyn / Cincinnati
Northern Liberties (suburb of Philadelphia) / St Louis
Albany / Chicago (OTL over 100,000)
Charleston / Buffalo
ATL largest cities in 1840- / ATL largest cities in 1860
NYC / NYC
New Orleans / Philadelphia
Baltimore / Baltimore
Philadelphia / New Orleans
Boston / Boston
Cincinnati / Brooklyn
Northern Liberties / Cincinnati
Charleston / St Louis
Brooklyn / Chicago (ATL only about 60,000)
Spring Garden (suburb of Philadelphia) / Pittsburgh
Thoughts?
What happens to the Iroquois nation (the Haudenosaunee) if it is not destroyed near the end of the American Revolution? Does it simply push back the inevitable? Does the Iroquois Civil War (Oneidas and Tuscaroras on American side versus the Mohawks, Cayugas, Senecas, and Onondagas) eventually end in a peaceful re-coalescing of the Iroquois nation?
I see that almost certainly there would simply be a pushing of the Haudenosaunee west regardless and White Man takes over... BUT what if... is there a way to make it where the Iroquois make a treaty with the USA, when the USA is still under the Articles of Confederacy but before the Northwest Territory Act. Could there be a way to make the Haudenosaunee stay in control of western Upstate New York and what would the repercussions be? Would the War of 1812 simply give reason to exterminate the Haudenosaunee?
I'm trying to see if there's a way to have the Haudenosaunee join as the 15th state (after Vermont and Kentucky but before Ohio and binds the Haudenosaunee to the US side when the War of 1812 occurs), and that since the Erie Canal was built solely by NY and not the Federal gov't in OTL, would there perhaps be a chance that the Haudenosaunee not want an Erie Canal and not cooperate with the powers that be in Albany. No Erie Canal means NYC does not become the gateway to the west, Buffalo, Cleveland, and Chicago do not grow as fast as they did IOTL. Railroads, which paralleled the Erie Canal and began soon after the construction of the canal (Mohawk and Hudson opened in 1831 only 6 years after canal) might not be built, might not get consolidated by Vanderbilt (turning a trip from NYC to Chicago from being one that required 17 transfers into being one continuous trainride). Without Erie Canal perhaps canals on the Ohio and Mississippi become more efficient and larger, we see Chicago, Cincinnati, and the Great Lakes being linked to New Orleans for international trade instead of NYC. A Potomac to Ohio canal (dream of George Washington) finally built, Washington DC, Baltimore, and Norfolk all gain immensely. Western railroad from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh and beyond gives Philadelphia a boost over NYC. Could this even have repercussions on Jackson's Trail of Tears if the Haudenosaunee make up even just 40% of an Iroquois state with 2 senators, what about repercussions of in the US Civil War if the economic and demographic butterflies have caused Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana to be reliant on New Orleans. IOTL New Orleans port only rivaled NYC in total tonnage because of their export tonnage of agricultural products (mostly grain), when one looks at import tonnage alone NYC crushed New Orleans, and NYC was more diverse. But no Erie Canal...
Is there a way in which this is possible?
Here's one example I can think of as causing some demographic changes if this scenario COULD happen-
OTL largest cities in 1840- / OTL largest cities in 1860-
NYC / NYC
Baltimore / Philadelphia
New Orleans / Brooklyn
Philadelphia / Baltimore
Boston / Boston
Cincinnati / New Orleans
Brooklyn / Cincinnati
Northern Liberties (suburb of Philadelphia) / St Louis
Albany / Chicago (OTL over 100,000)
Charleston / Buffalo
ATL largest cities in 1840- / ATL largest cities in 1860
NYC / NYC
New Orleans / Philadelphia
Baltimore / Baltimore
Philadelphia / New Orleans
Boston / Boston
Cincinnati / Brooklyn
Northern Liberties / Cincinnati
Charleston / St Louis
Brooklyn / Chicago (ATL only about 60,000)
Spring Garden (suburb of Philadelphia) / Pittsburgh
Thoughts?
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