Iron Curtain at the English Channel

FDR and Churchill will almost certainly go to war with the Soviets

I mean giving them Eastern Europe for fighting the Germans is one thing, but France is another.

Would a weak FDR be like the Al Smith we meet in Turtledoves TL-191??? Where Stalin is like J. Featherston?

/Fred
 
Desperate to secure a part of Europe, the Allies attempt a premature amphibious assault in France--Sledgehammer--but due to insufficient buildup, contested air superiority, and the unexpected resistance of Vichy forces, the Allies are forced to evacuate their beachheads in shame.

Why are Vichy French forces fighting the allies in occupied Northern France in this scenario? Not that I'd want to attempt a Sledghammer style landing against OTL German capabilities of course, but in these circumstances aren't a more German forces likely to be concentrated on the Eastern Front?
 
Why are Vichy French forces fighting the allies in occupied Northern France in this scenario? Not that I'd want to attempt a Sledghammer style landing against OTL German capabilities of course, but in these circumstances aren't a more German forces likely to be concentrated on the Eastern Front?

Well, you still have the UK launching operation Catapult, and Vichy did defend its territory, like Madagascar, from attack. I was thinking that Germany would not attempt to puppet Vichy and instead be forced to accept an alliance with that country as their fortunes in Eastern Europe completely collapse.

I think Sledgehammer would have been a bloody failure, OTL. But I recognize that I'm not fully aware of how it would change ITTL.
 
Guys

The problem with this scenario is like every other one which has the Red Army end up on the Rhine, or some point further west. Why are the Germans fighting grimly to keep the western allies out of France while the Soviets are storming not just to Berlin but to the Rhine. [I know in the OP it talked about Vichy but they simply didn't have the strength, even if they were allowed by the Germans to occupy the north].

You need to have the western powers too weak to cross the Channel at a time when the German empire is totally collapsing and the Red Army are able to advance across a bitterly hostile Europe before the western allies can land. Especially considering that facing a Soviet invasion the west would be welcomed with open arms by the French and all but the most fanatical Nazis. [The latter would under those circumstances have a very, very short life expectancy].

Steve
 
Guys

The problem with this scenario is like every other one which has the Red Army end up on the Rhine, or some point further west. Why are the Germans fighting grimly to keep the western allies out of France while the Soviets are storming not just to Berlin but to the Rhine. [I know in the OP it talked about Vichy but they simply didn't have the strength, even if they were allowed by the Germans to occupy the north].

You need to have the western powers too weak to cross the Channel at a time when the German empire is totally collapsing and the Red Army are able to advance across a bitterly hostile Europe before the western allies can land. Especially considering that facing a Soviet invasion the west would be welcomed with open arms by the French and all but the most fanatical Nazis. [The latter would under those circumstances have a very, very short life expectancy].

Steve

Well, I was working on the theory that as the Soviets pushed the Germans into France and BeNeLux, that the Nazis are going to give up at that point and issue the unconditional surrender. And then the Soviets just move in to hold the territory in order to ensure a safe return to their own nations' Government.

I'm sure they will be shocked. Shocked, I say, to find that they choose a Soviet style government.

At that point it'd depend on the Allied Roster. If the Allies have America on board then there'd be the military power to at least attempt to restore European Territory. Without it England would probably be too threatened to act.
 
Well, I think stevep makes a good point. So what would the Cold War be like if the Soviets had everything east of the Rhine, the Low Countries, and Scandinavia.

Do we think this would embolden or neuter de Gaulle's aspirations for an independent French defense?
 
well what about "Stalins Missed Chance"? Y'know the alleged planned invasion of Nazi Germany that the Red Army was tinkering with? If the Red army had pre-empted Barbarossa and caught the Germans with their pants down so to speak, maybe make the Red army a little better prepared(perhaps a POD with a smaller purge or the Russians learning more from the winter war) you might stand a chance of seeing the Russians pulling up just across the channel from the English in '45 or even earlier. The allies may have tried to mount a western invasion on the channel coast of France, but until 42 the US army didn't even have the Sherman tank which in spite of being widely considered a death trap was light years ahead of the Lee. Besides without the mustang(and thus escorted bombing raids into Germany), an effective air campaign would have been considerably weakened, and the US army would not have learned the lessons of Operation Torch which would have cut the effectiveness of any Allied invasion force in half.

In short I could see this happening. but the Russians have to be a good bit smarter and tad bit luckier than OTL. Not completely unbelievable, but not exactly a small difference either.
 
Well, OTL, the Soviet Union smashed right through Bulgaria, even though it was not at war with that country.

Correctly and carefully phrased. In fact it remains to be said that Bulgaria was an ally of Germany and at war with other Allies.
That said...


Nationalist Spain had fought against a Soviet-Backed Republician movement, and they'd sent volunteers against the Soviet Union--which is going to look terrible.

...yes it is. Probably would be considered a casus belli - assuming the Soviets managed to have troops alongside the Pyrenees.
 
Well, OTL, the Soviet Union smashed right through Bulgaria, even though it was not at war with that country.

Nationalist Spain had fought against a Soviet-Backed Republician movement, and they'd sent volunteers against the Soviet Union--which is going to look terrible.

Unless the Allies immediately throw their troops into Spain (very unlikely, they and Spain are not friends), I think the Red Army simply drives onto Madrid.

I don't know, even if most of Europe feels liberated (not likely) it's still going to be a lot of people and territory for the USSR to hold down. It might just be in their best interest to wait to deal with Spain later after a few purges of Europe.
 
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