Iron and Longships, Another Vinland TL

thekingsguard

The lack of women could be an issue, though I could see some entreprenuering Norseman starting a proto Mail Order Bride buisness. Promises the women in Europe who immigrate access to husbands and lives far better than they could find in Europe, promises the yeoman and nobles acess to women, makes money on both sides. Could be a fun plot point :D
 

Monty Burns

Population, and here especially women, could really be a problem. Oftentimes, Europe had more land than people. Plenty of medieval documents exist where people gift large parts of land to the church - but no peasants to work them. That would limit emmigration of mere peasants (those will have to flee).

One thing I could imagine is raids: the Norse in Vinland could raid the continent for women, or they could participate in Viking raids and wars back in Europe and bring back women. As already stated, living in Vinland is rather easy: land is plenty, natural richess allow for a good life, you'd just need a wife.

Another thing to consider is immigration of noble second sons. In Europe, they don't get an inheritance. Taking a ship and a couple of peasants makes them a Jarl in Vinland. And if Leif's policies continue even a rich peasant can go this way. That may be something to bring people over. Say the king of Norway gives each of his bastard sons (it's surprising how many bastard sons higer nobility can produce often without the ability to legalize them properly) a ship and some people and sends him over there - a good future for the son.
 
Evilprodigy

Evilprodigy

Donor
Olligarchy said:
This is darned impressive. :D You sir have another subscriber!
Click to expand...

Always good to have more readers.

Monty Burns said:
Population, and here especially women, could really be a problem. Oftentimes, Europe had more land than people. Plenty of medieval documents exist where people gift large parts of land to the church - but no peasants to work them. That would limit emmigration of mere peasants (those will have to flee).

One thing I could imagine is raids: the Norse in Vinland could raid the continent for women, or they could participate in Viking raids and wars back in Europe and bring back women. As already stated, living in Vinland is rather easy: land is plenty, natural richess allow for a good life, you'd just need a wife.

Another thing to consider is immigration of noble second sons. In Europe, they don't get an inheritance. Taking a ship and a couple of peasants makes them a Jarl in Vinland. And if Leif's policies continue even a rich peasant can go this way. That may be something to bring people over. Say the king of Norway gives each of his bastard sons (it's surprising how many bastard sons higer nobility can produce often without the ability to legalize them properly) a ship and some people and sends him over there - a good future for the son.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the coffin in one of your suggested ways for Vinland to get women, I have already written the next update but I only post once very 3 days to give myself gaps of time so I can write and to let people soak up the updates fully, and in that update I use one of the methods you just suggested.
 

kilost

Very interesting. Vinland TLs are always cool. How far will your Vikings get? How dominant will Norse culture become in the world? Can we have the Barbary pirates becoming the settlers of Central America and the West Indies? Pretty please?

I'll follow this closely :)
 
Evilprodigy

Evilprodigy

Donor
kilost said:
Very interesting. Vinland TLs are always cool. How far will your Vikings get?

I'll follow this closely :)
Click to expand...

Last time they hit New Orleans and Lake Superior and the last update I wrote was for 1136-1166. I plan to have them move much slower this time around since I feel that I kicked Vinland's expansion into hyperdrive last time and it was unrealistic. As to how far they will go I am not so sure yet but I do have plans for borders in North America to follow those of North American watersheds and continental divides.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/NorthAmerica-WaterDivides.png

kilost said:
How dominant will Norse culture become in the world?
Click to expand...

Probably only as far as Vinland itself expands with maybe some influences on the native American nations when they make contact with Mesoamerica. The biggest influence they will have is probably converting the natives to Christianity.

kilost said:
Can we have the Barbary pirates becoming the settlers of Central America and the West Indies? Pretty please?
Click to expand...

While that does sound cool I would like to stay realistic. But the rule of cool can go a long way.

kilost said:
I'll follow this closely :)
Click to expand...

Good to know I have more readers.
 

Barbarossa Rotbart

kilost said:
... Can we have the Barbary pirates becoming the settlers of Central America and the West Indies?
Click to expand...
No! And the reason for that is quite simple. The Reconquista is about to begin (because of Islamic fundamentalist becoming the new rulers of Andalusia). This will lead to the loss of all viable ports on the Iberian Peninsula. The ports on the Altanic coast in Northern Africa are to far away from the sea-route to America. Even in OTL they were not able to reach the Azores or the Canary Islands.
And there is another reason. The Berber are part of the Caliphate and thus are part of the empire that controls the trade between Europe and Asia. They really do not look for new routes to India or China.
The only realistic thing that will happen is that Islamic slavers will raid settlements in America because something like this happened OTL with Algerian pirates raiding some Icelandic coastal villages in 1627. And even then they did not raid settlements in America (or tried to found colonies there). They simple lack the dynamic that led to the viking discoveries of Iceland, Greenland and Vinland or to the Age of Exploration half a milleium later.

-> Arabic settlements in America are extremely unrealistic (and IMHO ASB).
 

Faeelin

I love Vinland as much as the next guy, but...

1) Skraeling immigrants? The Beothuk weren't even farmers.

2) I think you are overestimating how difficult it would be to travel to Vinland. Remember, Iceland itself was inaccessible for much of the year, and Greenland even moreso.

3) Did smallpox even reach Iceland by this point?
 

kilost

Barbarossa Rotbart said:
No! And the reason for that is quite simple. The Reconquista is about to begin (because of Islamic fundamentalist becoming the new rulers of Andalusia). This will lead to the loss of all viable ports on the Iberian Peninsula. The ports on the Altanic coast in Northern Africa are to far away from the sea-route to America. Even in OTL they were not able to reach the Azores or the Canary Islands.
And there is another reason. The Berber are part of the Caliphate and thus are part of the empire that controls the trade between Europe and Asia. They really do not look for new routes to India or China.
The only realistic thing that will happen is that Islamic slavers will raid settlements in America because something like this happened OTL with Algerian pirates raiding some Icelandic coastal villages in 1627. And even then they did not raid settlements in America (or tried to found colonies there). They simple lack the dynamic that led to the viking discoveries of Iceland, Greenland and Vinland or to the Age of Exploration half a milleium later.

-> Arabic settlements in America are extremely unrealistic (and IMHO ASB).
Click to expand...

OK, I wasn't really being serious. Although, would it be possible butterfly away the strength of the Catholic Iberian nations, causing the Reconquista to fail? Having Muslims still in South Iberia might be some interesting ATL fluff.
 

Barbarossa Rotbart

Not with this PoD.
Only one thing can save Al'Andalus and that would be a continuos moderate rule there, but as I said it is not possible with this PoD, because the events that lead to the fundamentalistic rule are not affected by the PoD. And even then as soon as the Crusades begin the Reconquesta will also start. And in contrast to the Crusades the Spanish were in a much better position. Thus the Reconquesta cannot fail.
 
Evilprodigy

Evilprodigy

Donor
Faeelin said:
I love Vinland as much as the next guy, but...

1) Skraeling immigrants? The Beothuk weren't even farmers.

2) I think you are overestimating how difficult it would be to travel to Vinland. Remember, Iceland itself was inaccessible for much of the year, and Greenland even moreso.

3) Did smallpox even reach Iceland by this point?
Click to expand...

1) No they were not. They are either taught to farm or they don't farm at all and instead hunt for either furs or meat. Or they are women and they just mate with someone. Or they are the whole tribe and just agree to give a percentage of their income (that being food and skins hunted) without actually immigrating or assimilating into Vinlander society.

2) I and going to treat this as you saying 'underestimating' since that is what I think you meant to say. Alot of these updates take place over several years (the most recent being 5 years in one update). The majority of immigrants come from Greenland, with the Anglo-Saxons and other groups coming over when it is accessible. I have mentioned that Greenland's winters have been getting worse, this is different from OTL and many more people are being left homeless and without farms to work so they move to Vinland once the winter goes away.

3) No it had not, there was already a discussion about this last page and I have changed to it to "unnamed disease, Historians believe it most likely to be the common cold or the flu"
 
Evilprodigy

Evilprodigy

Donor
Note: Upon writing another update I realized that the Lidus class should not be in the Hierarchy of Vinland, Lidus is a Latin word and the Norse have a word for something similar which is Thrall, I have edited the ending of the other update to reflect that though Thralls could also be Serfs, just ones with less freedom.
 

Grouchio

Does Dvaldron ever check this out? Maybe his words on the geography and climate of Newfoundland could be helpful...
 

Henriksson

I'm very skeptical of everything so far being accomplished within barely eight years, especially considering the difficulty of crossing the sea, but it's interesting and I think you should continue.
 

Grouchio

Dvaldron: Research and report on the climate and geography of Newfoundland in order to help the logistics of this ATL! Pronto! :p
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top