Iron and Longships, A Vinland TL

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

It isn't exactly possible for them to do that right now.
The only way colonists are coming to Vinland is via Greenland, which is close buy, and the only way to get to Greenland is to go to Iceland.
If someone wants to colonize Vinland they would need to take Iceland and Greenland before they can even think about getting to Vinland.

Once the technology comes around for crossing the ocean though in the late 1400's that is a different story.

???
What technology? Norse ships were adequate for crossing the North Atlantic. Knarrar better than Drakkar obviously, but adequate. What do the intervening years give us. Rudders vs Steering oars. That's more important if you're trying to manoeuver. Better sails for sailing closer to the wind. Yes, that would help, but Norse ships were a lot better than most square-rigged ships. Compass. That's only necessary if the weather is so bad you can't tell where the sun is.

People keep saying that Norse ship tech needs to be improved, but they had the best ships in Europe at the time, and made amazing voyages regularly. Sure modern ship tech might allow TRADE (i.e. regular commercial traffic) rather than 'a few ships a year', but you don't need that 'cheap' traffic for Vinland to be viable.

 

[Evilprodigy]

???
What technology? Norse ships were adequate for crossing the North Atlantic. Knarrar better than Drakkar obviously, but adequate. What do the intervening years give us. Rudders vs Steering oars. That's more important if you're trying to manoeuver. Better sails for sailing closer to the wind. Yes, that would help, but Norse ships were a lot better than most square-rigged ships. Compass. That's only necessary if the weather is so bad you can't tell where the sun is.

People keep saying that Norse ship tech needs to be improved, but they had the best ships in Europe at the time, and made amazing voyages regularly. Sure modern ship tech might allow TRADE (i.e. regular commercial traffic) rather than 'a few ships a year', but you don't need that 'cheap' traffic for Vinland to be viable.

There is still quite the distance that would need to be travelled from Sweden or Denmark going straight to Vinland and I doubt that even the really good Norse ships of the time could make that kind of a voyage in one go, they would need to stop in Greenland or Iceland and for regular colonization to be viable. Especially if Vinland feels like sacking the settlements there it would be pretty damn long time until the Sweds/Danes would know that anything happened if they even find out at all, plus the benefits to colonization would be the trade, which would need bigger ships.

 

[Evilprodigy]

THE EMPTY YEARS

1007-1028
Vinland continued its expansion around the pseudo-urban centers it possessed and further inland. Immigration continued it much the same manner as it had been for a long time. These things would go without saying, the thing is that this is a period of Vinland’s history where very little happened. From 1007 with the founding of Jakobsstaðir to around 1028 with the discovery of large deposits of bog iron in central Vinland and the ascension of Cnut the Great to the throne of Norway, other than these very little actually occurred or effected the colony. The only real events of note were an expansion of Leifsbudir’s area to the other side of its straits into Markland and the beginning of trade with the Skraelingar there.

Although there was a second wave of settlement building that occurred in 1020 when the sons of some of the first few colonists became old enough to explore in their own right and claim land and take Skraeling Thralls. In particular there was expansion down the St. Ansgar River, further south from Jakobsstaðir, and the mainland near Leifsstaðir.

Although perhaps the biggest change was the rise of Leif Eriksson’s firstborn son, Thorkell Leifsson, as Paramount Chieftain of Greenland in 1018 as this meant that Vinland no longer had such a favourable ruler in such a high position. Although Thorkell did however want to expand the Vinland colony as much as he could, he was far more restrictive in his gifts to the colony than is father, he more saw Vinland as a way to make Greenland more important and actively tried to promote Vinland as an extension of Greenland. This proved to be quite true as technically the lands were claimed by the leaders of Greenland but De Facto speaking the Vinland colony acted almost completely independently of Greenland and ignored it’s decrees as the ‘nobles’ became more and more independently minded of the Paramount Chieftain. This was due in part to the distance between the two locations and the large differences culturally and even ethnically speaking between the two places.

Vinlandic people tended to be darker skinned then those in Greenland, Iceland, or Europe due to interbreeding with Skrealingar. This also made the local Vinlandic people more hesitant in regards to immigration as you could slowly by surely see rifts in the culture of those from Europe from those ‘native’ to Vinland.

The average Vinlandic person had a much higher chance of having dark coloured hair and much darker complexion than Europeans. They tended to be taller on average as well due in part to then being descended of Scandinavians. They were violent people and fiercely pious towards Christianity as only the immigrants or what came to be known as ‘purebloods’, immigrants who bred with other white immigrants, were of the old Norse belief system.

Leif Eriksson died around 1020 after spending the last years of his life as an advisor to his son and as storyteller to his grandchildren and others in Greenland, still trying to make his baby Vinland stronger even to his death. This did work in part and Leif tended to like the life of storytelling since he could no longer set to the seas and explore.

Knowledge of Vinland was still very slow to expand and by the end of the empty years was well known of in Greenland, Iceland, the Orkneys, and the Faroes. Vinland was known to a lesser degree among peasants across the lands of Cnut the Great, which was Denmark, Norway, Parts of Sweden, and England. Due to this some more immigration to Vinland started to come from those of Danish and Anglo-Saxon descent but the numbers were tiny compared to those from Iceland and Greenland. In fact it was a Danish immigrant that discovered bog iron deposits in central Vinland in 1028.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

nice updates, keep it coming

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

To what extent are the Beothuk people of Newfoundland (the island) being influenced by the arrival of the Nords....I mean Norsemen?

 

[Evilprodigy]

To what extent are the Beothuk people of Newfoundland (the island) being influenced by the arrival of the Nords....I mean Norsemen?

Depends where you are.
The Norse already have influence and trade relations ALA stuff like a Coureur De Bois. That alone would have significantly influenced their culture and brought Christianity to them in most cases as well.
But that's in the more isolated areas, near some of the major areas of settlement you have Beothuk that have just plain abandoned their native culture in preference to the Norse one like OTL Native Immigrants to English or French colonies.
The biggest change is Christianity but most Beothuk are the same old Native Americans as per OTL as long as you ignore the Christianity part.

 

[Faeelin]

The question I have is... what's the pull factor? What brings people to the New World in this period, and what finances the colonization?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

The question I have is... what's the pull factor? What brings people to the New World in this period, and what finances the colonization?

Land. That's what brought people to the US and Canada OTL, it should work here.

You might need to figure out a way to pay for it, as that could be a problem. But a moderately well off family in Norway might be able to scrape up the money to send second son Ólafr off to Vinland, say.

It's realistically going to be a trickle, not a flood, but Iceland filled up fast due to immigration. Yes, Vinland's farther. I think you're going to get more growth by natural increase than immigration.

 

[thekingsguard]

Looking forward to seeing how 1028 changes things.

 

[Evilprodigy]

The question I have is... what's the pull factor? What brings people to the New World in this period, and what finances the colonization?

As DT said it's mostly land. At this time people were settling Greenland because Iceland was getting too crowded (Which seems really stange to me given the tiny population) so it isn't to hard to take a one leg extra trip to Vinland. Which is why mostly Icelandic people have been the colonizers even though there are so few of them.

Remember though that knowledge of Vinland only just recently got outside of Greenland so people going to Vinland (until just recently) have been used to moving around and colonizing strange areas, they are people will experience and the kinds of people who would actually go colonize.

I mostly did the whole "Vinland stays a secret thing" so that I could keep Europe more or less OTL so Cnut the Great would still make his North Sea Empire and so that the people take after Iceland and not Norway, England, Denmark, Sweden, or whatever.

 

[Detlef]

As DT said it's mostly land. At this time people were settling Greenland because Iceland was getting too crowded (Which seems really stange to me given the tiny population) so it isn't to hard to take a one leg extra trip to Vinland. Which is why mostly Icelandic people have been the colonizers even though there are so few of them.

See this post from page 2:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=5763039&postcount=22

Fishing would be good in Iceland but the farmland isn´t that good.
A TV documentary I saw some time ago mentioned serious problems with wind erosion. Apparently without ground "cover" (plants, trees whose roots "fix" the soil) the relatively thin layer of fertile soil will be blown away.
Such a thin layer might explain the "marginal" farmland mentioned in some articles. Too much grazing by farm animals might destroy the ground cover too leaving barren land behind (the TV documentary showed some areas where replanting efforts were going on). Not sure how large trees could become in such conditions?

In Iceland, good agricultural land is where you can graze cattle.
Even in the Mediaeval Warm Period (up to ~1300) Iceland only grew enough barley for beer - and since they did eat some, they had to import grain.

Iceland was the only place in mediaeval Europe where meat and flour were the same price. Most places, meat was FAR more expensive.

This is my main reason why I believe that Vinland would be "popular". As in, a steady trickle of people / families over the years and decades.

If the Norse were willing to settle in Iceland with only marginal farmland and even in Greenland why not go a bit father to Vinland if you have the chance?
Better farmland (especially land not claimed yet), good fishing and lots of timber. Now also with bog iron found.
Add imported farm animals (cattle, sheep, Iceland horses) and some seeds (flax especially) and Vinland would be pretty much "independent". Trading grain, timber, furs and animal skins against "luxury" goods like vine, copper, gold, fruit and vegetable seeds from Europe. Maybe pigs from Europe?

 

[Evilprodigy]

KING OF ALL ENGLAND AND DENMARK AND THE NORWEGIANS AND OF SOME OF THE SWEDES

The North Sea Empire of Cnut the Great.​

His domains are in Red, Vassals in Orange, and allied states in Yellow.​

1028
Cnut the Great was one of the most influential rulers in Europe during his time as king.

Firstly the Empire he formed was perhaps the largest in Europe during this time period with a population of around 5-7 million people under his rule in some way or another (Sources for this time period on population are shit). That is very small by modern standards but by medieval standards that is pretty large unless you are in Francia.

Secondly was his control over the church, with so many dioceses in both England and Scandinavia gave him extreme leverage against the powers of the pope, allowing him to reduce funds that were sent to the papacy considerably and a reduction on pilgrimage costs for his subjects.

Thirdly was the wealth his nation controlled from trade. Cnut basically ran all of the trade networks the Vikings had set up over so long and had even expanded them with the ownership of England providing access to many new markets in the west and in the Mediterranean.

Fourthly was good old military power. Europe knew and feared the powers of Viking raids and at almost any time Cnut could state sponsor just these things and perhaps sack any major city in Europe. The Vikings had made raids across almost every coast in Western Europe with the acceptation of the Mediterranean east of Italy but not including the black sea. They even raided parts of North Africa in Córdoba and Algeria.

Cnut as a person was a very capable ruler and commanded tremendous respect as a politician even without the whole “Being a king” part. He was well situated to allow for his subjects to be pleased with him by being very piously Christian, or not very pious. For example, in England he was always building churches and in Scandinavia he never sponsored missionary activity and never tried to convert the Pagan Norse Aristocracy. He also abandoned previous methods of control through brutality with ones based around cultural bonds of wealth (they are all tradesmen) and custom (they are all more or less Christians). This allowed him to make a country that wasn’t ruled through force of arms and led to real established loyalty among the population and lords across his Empire.

Cnut gained the Throne of England in 1016 after taking over the country and establishing what would be called the Danelaw. The land where the laws of the Danes held sway, this nation was all of England north of the Thames River. The remaining part was allowed to be kept by the then King of England Edmund Ironside but he died within 30 days of the treaty that he had with Cnut. This treaty that divided England stated that when Edmund died that Cnut become king of all England. With this Cnut came to rule his first crown and Vinland was in the empty years.

Due to his kingship Viking raids stopped entirely in England and the nation’s economy boomed like it had before the continuation of the raids in the 980s. He quickly eliminated any prospective threat to his rule including all members of the legitimate royal family, many unruly lords, and quite a few random discontented peasants. In particular he also killed his wife, Emma of Normandy’s, children by her first husband Aethelred. Among these were Alfred Atheling and Edward (OTL Edward the confessor). With all of this death Cnut’s son Harthacnut was now the only person who could take control of England if his father died unless someone invaded. Many of the ranks for lords were replaced by Scandinavian Jarls that had come with Cnut in the invasion.

Cnut ordered that England pay tribute to him in the form of a Danegeld, which is the price that a nation must pay to have a Viking attack not happen or to pay for them to protect an area instead of raid it; he made around 72,000 Troy Pounds. He also extorted around 10,500 Troy Pounds from London itself. With this money he paid off his Viking force and disbanded most of it.

When the King of Denmark, Harald II, died Cnut went to Denmark to become its king since he was next in line to the throne. There was no opposition to his rule there but some people disliked having him as King since it meant to raids against England. Cnut told them to go attack Francia or Ireland instead. The decentralized nature of Francia prevented adequate naval response to be created to fight back against the raids and there was plenty of wealth to be extorted there. He allowed them to raid these places from England, which made many of the originally opposed lords more than happy to have him as king. He left Denmark once he felt his reign was secure and appointed the husband of his sister, Ulf Jarl, as regent of Denmark.

However due to Cnuts commitment to England the Kings of Norway and Sweden (Olaf Haraldsson and Anund Jakob respectively) saw that Denmark would be an easy place to take and attacked. The wealth of England however and the Loyalty of the regent (He switched sides IOTL) allowed Cnut to quickly beat them back. He took control of Norway after invading the capital, killing the king and his family, and being crowned there by the lords who had been assembled for a council of war by Olaf. The lords liked Cnut much better than Olaf and were fine with letting him become king since they knew that it wouldn’t affect them much due to his focus on England and that it would allow them to base raids on Europe out of England. Olaf also had a tendency to flay the lords’ wives for sorcery... also they were bribed by Cnut. Cnut then went to Sweden’s capital (Which was near the coast) and beat the Swedes silly, getting a surrender from the King but rather than taking his throne (Cnut didn’t want more land and the Swedish lords were not going to be loyal to him) he simply forced the lords near the capital to pay him tribute as well as some directly from the Kingdom.

With the gaining of Norway traders from Iceland bringing great lumber, furs, and meats from a place called ‘Vinland’ quite a few English and Danish merchants started up expansions to the Icelandic trade network to sell these things to Europe. Cnut went back to England and continued his rule until his death in 1028. It is said that Cnut at his burial was buried in a coat made of Beaver skins that were not of the kind that was known of in Europe at the time due to their colour and type of fur.

This update I present you with a Europe map, not a Vinland one, since this update does not involve Vinland and because it does not change this year. There may be a few inaccuracies and I will note that I made several changes that do not just concern the North Sea Empire of Cnut the Great for reasons that I want to make this TL more than just about Vinland, but it will stay the main focus. For example Sardinia is fully Byzantine, rather than a patchwork of Byzantine vassals. Also Greenland is more or less a guess for borders. I have no idea as to the true area of Viking settlement there. If anyone has a source I would love to see it.

 

[Evilprodigy]

See this post from page 2:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=5763039&postcount=22

This is my main reason why I believe that Vinland would be "popular". As in, a steady trickle of people / families over the years and decades.

If the Norse were willing to settle in Iceland with only marginal farmland and even in Greenland why not go a bit father to Vinland if you have the chance?
Better farmland (especially land not claimed yet), good fishing and lots of timber. Now also with bog iron found.
Add imported farm animals (cattle, sheep, Iceland horses) and some seeds (flax especially) and Vinland would be pretty much "independent". Trading grain, timber, furs and animal skins against "luxury" goods like vine, copper, gold, fruit and vegetable seeds from Europe. Maybe pigs from Europe?

What you say all makes perfect sense and fits in well with what I was saying about the land being open.
So I'm going to steal it. That ok with you

 

[Detlef]

What you say all makes perfect sense and fits in well with what I was saying about the land being open.
So I'm going to steal it. That ok with you

Go for it!

There will be a steady trickle of settlers / families in the next centuries.
And once the Little Ice Age starts I suspect that most settlers in Greenland will relocate to Vinland (closer to them than Iceland and more prosperous).

By that time Vinland probably will be self-sufficient. If they want to keep up trade with Iceland and Europe they just need a trade post / protected port / supply point in Greenland. Given the resources of Vinland, supplying such a trade post should be doable.

It would be a tiny line of contact to Europe. But it would ensure that Vinland would get notice of major new inventions, Maybe 1-2 decades later than mainland Europe. But still early enough to discourage Spanish, English or French explorations in their direction.

 

[thekingsguard]

I'm thrilled to see Canute lived to form a united kingdom in Scandinavia Here's hoping it remains so for centuries to come!

 

[Stars-and-Stripes]

When I first clicked on this TL I thought I would be bored to death since I wasn't into AH of this era, but you proved me wrong. Great job and continue your writing.

 

[Evilprodigy]

I have made a rather large error with the Europe map after seeing the OTL UCS 1030 map and some quick research that shows the first Bulgarian Empire died in 1018. So I edited the map to show that and adopted the method of showing the state of Sweden that appeared in that map as well since it is very similar to OTL.
However since I still need to show that Cnut did better ITTL I'll give him Gotland but I won't be changing my post to reflect that since it is a minor change story wise.

 

[GrandpaTanaka]

This is really interesting! I love the way the colonies are turning out, and the unified kingdoms under Cnut have really intrigued me about what comes next.

A few things I'd like to mention regarding the geography of Eastern Canada. Very minor nit-picking, certainly nothing I would say is wrong:


-When the Norsemen travelled up that large river and reached what they thought was a sea until someone fell in, I assume they went up the OTL St. Lawrence. Only issue here is the Lachine Rapids near Montreal. They were a huge hinderance to river travel for a long long time. I am not sure whether it's possible to portage a longboat, but if they had they would have at least noticed it was fresh-water. If you were talking about another river/sea, just ignore me

-When they accidently wound up in OTL Halifax, were the settlers coming from Vinland or Terra Nova? Only reason I ask is that PEI is actually at least as mild as Halifax, and has better soil. The area around Halifax is extremely rocky and there is essentially no farming there today (best farming area of NS is the Annapolis Valley and around Truro). It might seem like a good location for farming if you're coming from Newfoundland, but not if you were coming from PEI.

Those are my only very minor concerns, and both could be easily explained. I just figured I'd let you know in case you weren't really familiar with the area.

Loving the TL, Keep it coming!

 

[Evilprodigy]

This is really interesting! I love the way the colonies are turning out, and the unified kingdoms under Cnut have really intrigued me about what comes next.

A few things I'd like to mention regarding the geography of Eastern Canada. Very minor nit-picking, certainly nothing I would say is wrong:


-When the Norsemen travelled up that large river and reached what they thought was a sea until someone fell in, I assume they went up the OTL St. Lawrence. Only issue here is the Lachine Rapids near Montreal. They were a huge hinderance to river travel for a long long time. I am not sure whether it's possible to portage a longboat, but if they had they would have at least noticed it was fresh-water. If you were talking about another river/sea, just ignore me

-When they accidently wound up in OTL Halifax, were the settlers coming from Vinland or Terra Nova? Only reason I ask is that PEI is actually at least as mild as Halifax, and has better soil. The area around Halifax is extremely rocky and there is essentially no farming there today (best farming area of NS is the Annapolis Valley and around Truro). It might seem like a good location for farming if you're coming from Newfoundland, but not if you were coming from PEI.

Those are my only very minor concerns, and both could be easily explained. I just figured I'd let you know in case you weren't really familiar with the area.

Loving the TL, Keep it coming!

Great to have a new reader as always. I am surprised by the turnout given that this is my first time writing a TL.

Yes they did go up the OTL St. Lawrence, it is possible to portage a Longboat, Vikings did it alot for miles on end in Russia to get to different rivers there which was the reason their trade networks could get to the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. I was unaware of those rapids but when they made it to Lake Ontario the thing is just so big they just assumed it was the other side of the continent and they had found the sea that leaves it until a guy fell in and said it was fresh water, making them realize it is just a giant lake.

The settlers to OTL Halifax went there from Thorgislvik, where Jakob was in at the time since he was with his family. Thorgilsvik is in OTL St. Johns Newfoundland so yeah they came from Newfoundland.

And FYI I am Canadian so I know quite a fair bit about the geography I am talking about here but there is always room for improvement, thanks for the criticism and questions.


Question for my readers
I am about to start writing the next update but I am not sure which plan to write about first.
I have 2 plans and both will be done so I figured I would ask my readers what they though.
1: An update based around the status of other parts of Europe. Namely the Holy Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Kievan Rus, Kingdom of Francia, and the Caliphate of Córdoba.
2: An update on the results of the discovery of Iron in Vinland and the next few decades of colonization and expansion.

 

[Stars-and-Stripes]

I would say the latter unless the former affects the events of the latter in any significant way.