Irish unification and development etc without colonisation

If the Angevin-Normans and later the English had never tried to annex Ireland at any time between he 12th century and the French Revolution, how do you think Ireland would have developed?

How would it have responded to the reformation,the Renaissance, and the trials and tribulations of those centuries?

Would it have united by 1800, or would it still be a patchwork of independent states?

What would it be like in 2015?
 

Pangur

Donor
If the Angevin-Normans and later the English had never tried to annex Ireland at any time between he 12th century and the French Revolution, how do you think Ireland would have developed?

How would it have responded to the reformation,the Renaissance, and the trials and tribulations of those centuries?

Would it have united by 1800, or would it still be a patchwork of independent states?

What would it be like in 2015?

There would have had to have been some pressure to unify the island otherwise its hard to see how it would have come about. There is IMHO your starting point. Perhaps the Irish unite to push out the English and the lesson learnt is that they have to stick together. Regardless Ireland is geographically too close to the UK not to be dragged into conflict so that may give you the required triggers not just to stay together but to also develop tech wise along the same lines as the rest of Europe
 
ireland-pre-norman.jpg

map950.gif


I think it reformation would be ignored. Irish church was seen at the time as not main steam Roman catholic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Christianity

United ? Hard to say. There could have been a high King that the local Kings to were loyal to.
Maybe be a Confederacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland

2015 that hard to say.
I could see Irish law being based on Brehon Law still in 2015.
I think Ireland would still be Gaelic speaking.
 
Last edited:
If the Angevin-Normans and later the English had never tried to annex Ireland at any time between he 12th century and the French Revolution, how do you think Ireland would have developed?
Ireland was going to deal with Britain sooner or later.

Even during the VIIth century, it had its fair deal of interaction with Anglo-Saxons (up to one campaign in Ireland for royal succession matters).
With the Viking Age, these pre-existing connections only became stronger (Hiberno-Norse settlements being largely tied with Jorvik, for exemple).

With all the regional proximity, already established links, etc. you'd have to make Ireland fantastically isolated to shield it against insular intervention.

Butterflying away Noman conquest of England (which is not too difficult) could delay English interest on Irish Sea, but not that much long : Late Anglo-Saxons were pretty much railed against Cymric principalties already and an pretty obvious nest of mercenaries avaible to settle Irish political disputes (IOTL, Anglo-Normans were called by Irish kings against their opponents. Which was retrospectivly a bad idea* but a pretty obvious one).

* While not exactly new : it had a long and prestigious history coming from Celts and Caesar to Byzantine and Latins, passing by Visigoths and Arabo-Berbers

As soon as an english noble would settle and dominate at least part of Ireland, or if an Irish king ask or became tributary of England (which could happen easily, see the Scottish exemple in Early MA), you'd have room for English intervention.

Your best chance is to see a lasting unification of Ireland (and that's not going to be easy, would it be because it would be in no-one interest) while England is busy elsewhere, and manage to fend off most of smaller expeditions.
Something equivalent to Davidian Revolution seems necessary : English nobility and elites would have far less room claiming of a semi-Christian anarchy to intervene with ecclesiastical blessing.

Eventually, it could look a lot as Scotland : definitely not shielded from wars with England, and far from being immune to its political influence, but somehow unified and distinct.

Toirdelbach Ua Briain, king of Munster and one strong claimant to High Kingship (or his son, Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair) may have been a good candidate for...let's call it Turloughian Revolution with ecclesiastical support, before Anglo-Normans lords could take control of Leinster.

I'd think it would pass trough, as Scotland, a period of de facto vassalisation of Ireland by England, but that's the closest I could think of.
Eventually, Ireland could manage to tie direct relations with the wider Latin Christiendom, bypassing partially English influence.

Would it have united by 1800, or would it still be a patchwork of independent states?
What would it be like in 2015?
Given the butterflies, it's near impossible to say without much wishful thinking.
 
Top