Irish Military Intervention in Northern Ireland
- Thread starter flasheart
- Start date
I'm not sure to be honest, I just saw a conversation about the video the BBC put on their socials yesterday. I'm not a native to NI so I only really know Belfast from the time I've lived here (so from about 2000).
The Irish Defense Forces INVADE a NATO member?
Let me repeat that, just in case anyone missed it. Invade a NATO MEMBER STATE. A NUCLEAR ARMED NATO MEMBER STATE.
Put another way, they have just declared war on the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Ya', this will end well.
Let me repeat that, just in case anyone missed it. Invade a NATO MEMBER STATE. A NUCLEAR ARMED NATO MEMBER STATE.
Put another way, they have just declared war on the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Ya', this will end well.
indeed.
Ireland declaring war on America sounds like
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The Offical IRA did. The Provos did not, that was why the IRA split between the Offical IRA(Marxist) and the Provisional IRA(non-Marxist)in 1969.
Official Irish Republican Army - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The Provos got their weapons and money from America and Lybia.
Provisional Irish Republican Army - Wikipedia
To be fair - as the P-IRA wikipedia entry notes - the P-IRA did still officially have the creation of a socialist (and federal) republic across the island as their end goal, they just de-emphasised the ideology in favour of an emphasis on victory first.
A Socialist Republic, not a communist one.
In practice, neither Socialism nor Communism has much support in Ireland.
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One hour after Invasion "What"s an "Ireland"?"
I still love the bit from the planners about the Irish Defense Forces making up for their lack of trucks by renting buses to transport the troops from the national bus company.
Can you imagine the sheer terrible fury of the Might of the "IRISH BATTLE BUS FORCE!!!!"
"Well we Sort of Won."
"We fucking won? Goddamnit you idiots you can't even fail correctly. Now we'll have to come up with a new master plan in how to fail properly."
Sometimes you do have to wonder when high level government officials act like half drunken knuckleheads looking for a fight.
Absolutely valid BUT . . . . .
There is really only one scenario where Irish military intervention in Northern Ireland is ever possible. That is where the Westminster government has washed its hands of the territory and the Catholic, Nationalist, population was being driven out of its homes in a pogrom. By Loyalist mobs aided by the paramilitaries and RUC. In that situation I think the NATO Article 5 is not applicable and US public opinion would actually favour the Irish intervention.
That nightmare scenario looked as if it might have come to pass in 1969 and would have seemed possible at other times with different governments at Westminster . Hence the planning - if we can grant that name to the studies.
FWIW my assessment of the rationale for the deployment of Irish troops to the border zone in 1969 was to put pressure on Westminster to deploy troops to quell the Loyalist violence. Along with a complaint to the UN Security Council calling for international peacekeeping forces. Secondly to help evacuate refugees to safety with families in the Republic.
Which worked, sort of.
To be fair, in the context of the time when you had NI Catholics crossing the border due to the situation, I mean several of the barracks around the border and religious orders were already full with refugees effectively, there was pressure on the Government to "do something". Now the Irish General Staff basically put together something that they knew couldn't happen (or at the very least perhaps hoping it might get the Government to actually fund them properly), but as I said everything down to the Reserves were put on alert for something.
You do have to respect the Irish military officers responsible for responding to their idiotic suggestions. Technically showing the respect due from a commissioned military officer to their elected civilian leaders while making it blindingly obvious that their idea's are completely moronic (Including literally naming the op "Operation Armageddon") pointing out how massively outgunned the Irish Army was and the massive and immediate repercussions for Ireland. I still love the bit about the planners suggesting renting busses to consist of a large part of the invasion force.
Honestly considering the state of the Irish military of the time the RUC and the loyalist/unionist militia's could have probably beaten them in a fight even without getting the British armed forces involved (Let alone all those NATO allies). I think the RUC of the time alone probably was probably signifigantly larger then the Irish attacking force and probably better armed (Despite the Royal Ulster Constabulary nominally being a police force and the Irish Army being the army of a modern nation state).
Countries frequently, and very ostentatiously, ratchet up alert levels, as a way of showing concern or disapproval. The U.S. has more or less made it a SOP. The unit alerted is also a message. In the U.S. it is normally the 82nd and/or 101st, although it can also consist of "Navy sources indicate that the 'USS Wasp Amphibious Group' ' or "Nimitz Battle Group" is moving toward...". In extreme cases it is "Pentagon sources inform CNN/Fox/NBC/whoever that the U.S. Defesse Condition has been moved from Level Five to Level Four, with all that implies".
I did a thread on this some years ago:
The Irish military action was never meant to be an "invasion" in any sense but more the creation of corridors to allow Catholics to move south. The other aspect of it was a diplomatic offensive aimed primarily at Washington, the aim of which was to bring American pressure to bear on the UK Government to dismantle a political and economic system which didn't look far removed from some of the excesses seen elsewhere at the time.
The British response would rapidly overwhelm the Irish and indeed would rapidly become (as happened in OTL Desert Storm in 1991) a punitive exercise. I had the British effectively destroy the Irish armed forces before a ceasefire.
The political consequences would be considerable - in Ulster, the militant Protestants would rapidly take over and it would take a second British military intervention, under pressure from Washington, to end the reign of terror. The journey from there to a peace would be long and fraught but the "Troubles" would end in 1972 rather than 25 years later. For Ireland, the ill-fated incursion would be politically disastrous for Jack Lynch and Fianna Fail which would fall apart and be replaced by a more conservative rural political force but power would consolidate around Fine Gael. Ireland would enter a period of introversion eschewing EEC membership in 1973 and remaining insular for a decade or more.
For Britain, the short-lived but successful conflict achieved with very little loss of life would be a huge fillip for Wilson's Government which would win a third term in the autumn of 1969.
The Road From Armageddon
As the cab crawled along the Las Vegas Strip in the heat of a September afternoon, I wondered exactly what I was doing in Sin City. My Editor had been keen for me to get the viewpoint of Haruka Kirayoshi, the leading, what was she called, psychopolitical analyst. I had imagined meeting a...
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The Irish military action was never meant to be an "invasion" in any sense but more the creation of corridors to allow Catholics to move south. The other aspect of it was a diplomatic offensive aimed primarily at Washington, the aim of which was to bring American pressure to bear on the UK Government to dismantle a political and economic system which didn't look far removed from some of the excesses seen elsewhere at the time.
The British response would rapidly overwhelm the Irish and indeed would rapidly become (as happened in OTL Desert Storm in 1991) a punitive exercise. I had the British effectively destroy the Irish armed forces before a ceasefire.
The political consequences would be considerable - in Ulster, the militant Protestants would rapidly take over and it would take a second British military intervention, under pressure from Washington, to end the reign of terror. The journey from there to a peace would be long and fraught but the "Troubles" would end in 1972 rather than 25 years later. For Ireland, the ill-fated incursion would be politically disastrous for Jack Lynch and Fianna Fail which would fall apart and be replaced by a more conservative rural political force but power would consolidate around Fine Gael. Ireland would enter a period of introversion eschewing EEC membership in 1973 and remaining insular for a decade or more.
For Britain, the short-lived but successful conflict achieved with very little loss of life would be a huge fillip for Wilson's Government which would win a third term in the autumn of 1969.
In this specific scenario is it very LIKELY that the U.S. would directly intervene and then press for international peacekeepers (time to get on the line to Ottawa and Stockholm).
It's tricky, in terms of numbers you are most likely right about the RUC/Specials outnumbering the DF (as the increase didn't happen till the 70's) but in terms of weapons most likely the DF would have the advantage.
Which as said was the "hoped for" outcome by the Irish Government, though it would still be a disaster.
True enough, and when you consider at the time how little engagement between Dublin and London at this period (where Dublin was basically told "Fuck off, none of your business"), and given the UK was most likely reading all relevant Irish communications, it might well have been a "signal" of a type.