There's a scenario that doesn't involve war with the UK. I don't exactly know how it might happen, but I vaguely remember someone in the UK proposing to just make Northern Ireland independent?

If that happens and things go to absolute crap in Northern Ireland, I could see Irish troops entering in, kind of as peacemakers.
One of the doomsday “plans“ that was floated in London during the worst of the Troubles was something like that, but it’s very hard to see how any Cabinet could get away with doing that.
 
This would have triggered Section 5 of the NATO treaty obligating NATO to come to the defense of Great Britain. It would only take 24 hours for the ready brigade of the 82nd Airborne to be on the ground in Belfast. Talk about a mess.
 
This would have triggered Section 5 of the NATO treaty obligating NATO to come to the defense of Great Britain. It would only take 24 hours for the ready brigade of the 82nd Airborne to be on the ground in Belfast. Talk about a mess.
The U.K. would never invoke that, hell one of aims of the “plan“ was to force external intervention. The U.K. wouldn’t need any other force getting involved.
 
I love how his career in the Army got stunted due to him being too big for the driver sea.
That was not a problem when he joined the American Military.

Major Nicholas “The Chieftain” Moran

In the Irish Army
 
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Nope, but then it would have been a bit hard to justify buying M1 tanks due to one guy being too big for the Panhards...:openedeyewink:

Reminds me of the old joke about Soviet Tankers telling the engineers responsible for designing their tanks that Soviet tanks innards were far too cramped to the point of being nearly unbearable and the early auto loaders having a somewhat not good habit of ripping off loaders arms.

The Soviet Engineer's take away from the talk was that they needed to design a new breed of genetically engineered one armed midgets to man the next generation of Soviet tanks.
 
Very much so. The reason why North Belfast was the murder capital of the North during the troubles was that it was a patchwork of Protestant and Catholic areas literally separated from each other by about 100 yards of tarmac. Then you have largely Protestant villages like Castlederg or Sion Mills with a Catholic hinterland, largely Catholic towns/villages like Downpatrick or Kircubbin with vice versa or Kilkeel which traditionally had a Protestant side of the main street and a Catholic side of the main street.


Meaning the only way to actually divide the territory into "Catholic Bits" and "Protestant bits" would be ethnic cleansing or Turkey/Greece style "Population exchanges".

Both of which are considered not exactly desirable by anyone but the absolute worst fanatics.
 
Meaning the only way to actually divide the territory into "Catholic Bits" and "Protestant bits" would be ethnic cleansing or Turkey/Greece style "Population exchanges".

Both of which are considered not exactly desirable by anyone but the absolute worst fanatics.
Sadly however not totally unheard of in NI at times, as I’ve said that’s how my maternal side ended up in the South, forced out of Belfast after the Treaty.
 
The only military context in which an Irish invasion of the north makes sense is one where the British have washed their hands of the place and effectively UDI'ed in reverse for whatever reason and the army has been sent in protect nationalists where possible. Countries don't invade their close neighbours with 13 times their population and expect it to go well.

There may have been a political context in which an "invasion" makes sense as means of forcing the British Government's hand in the context of unrestrained violence against nationalist communities. In this case, the British Army being sent into Northern Ireland is probably one of the outcomes the Government are trying to achieve.

The rhetoric surrounding this type of operation won't be "A nation once again", it will be " we can't stand by while footage of civilians being murdered are beamed around the world every night."
 
Meaning the only way to actually divide the territory into "Catholic Bits" and "Protestant bits" would be ethnic cleansing or Turkey/Greece style "Population exchanges".

Both of which are considered not exactly desirable by anyone but the absolute worst fanatics.

They did that right up to the 60s and 70s. A fella was kicked to death in the 70s just up the road from the primary school my kids go to for being Catholic. A couple of years ago a mate of a girl I'm friends with in work got a visit one night to be told she either found a new boyfriend who kicked with the proper foot or she found somewhere else to live. It wasn't negotiable.

New Buildings on the banks of the Foyle is populated by the Prods burned out of the estates in Londonderry back in the day.
 
They did that right up to the 60s and 70s. A fella was kicked to death in the 70s just up the road from the primary school my kids go to for being Catholic. A couple of years ago a mate of a girl I'm friends with in work got a visit one night to be told she either found a new boyfriend who kicked with the proper foot or she found somewhere else to live. It wasn't negotiable.

New Buildings on the banks of the Foyle is populated by the Prods burned out of the estates in Londonderry back in the day.

"Kicked with the proper foot"?

I am aware there has been some obvious relatively small scale ethnic cleansing in modern post WW2 Northern Ireland (small compared to the Greek/Turkish "Population Exchanges" or the expulsion of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after WW2 or the Nakhba/expulsion of Sephardim and Misrahi Jews from various Arab countries post 1948). I meant that in order to get anything like doable international borders by dividing up Northern Ireland into "Protestant Bits" and "Catholic Bits" you'd need to go full scale and expel hundreds of thousands of people minimum probably more. Not trying to undermine anyone's real sufferings before or during the Troubles. I might not be Irish or British but it seems like there was more then enough suffering to go around. Just pointing out that in order to have anything other then completely unworkable nightmare borders for a formal international religious partition you'd need to go full hog and do some truly awful things.
 
The only military context in which an Irish invasion of the north makes sense is one where the British have washed their hands of the place and effectively UDI'ed in reverse for whatever reason and the army has been sent in protect nationalists where possible. Countries don't invade their close neighbours with 13 times their population and expect it to go well.

There may have been a political context in which an "invasion" makes sense as means of forcing the British Government's hand in the context of unrestrained violence against nationalist communities. In this case, the British Army being sent into Northern Ireland is probably one of the outcomes the Government are trying to achieve.

The rhetoric surrounding this type of operation won't be "A nation once again", it will be " we can't stand by while footage of civilians being murdered are beamed around the world every night."

I was thinking somehow a situation with a nuclear war where the UK gets decimated but neutral Ireland largely avoids getting hit. Something like a "Cuban Missile War" around 1963 with Britain and much of Western Europe getting decimated but the Soviets not wasting any of their relatively few (compared to later) nukes on the small, weak, and neutral Ireland. Northern Ireland get's hit at least a few times but slightly less badly then the mainland UK. Afterwards a combination of the catastrophe of the war and economic/infrastructure breakdown setting off a full blown sectarian clusterfuck (that makes the OTL troubles look like a friendly disagreement). The UK government and the Northern Irish gov more or less stops existing. Elements of the British military end up melting away and joining one side or the other (mostly the Protestant side but the Catholic militant groups capture a sizable amount of weaponry from what used to be the British armed forces). After a week or so (and a few hundred thousand more deaths) the government of the Republic of Ireland decides to try and intervene more then anything else to just stop the flood of starving desperate refugee's from flooding south into the Republic that is already tottering from the economic effects of the War). The protestant militant groups largely avoid fighting the Irish Defense forces because by then food is starting to get short for everyone and the Irish government is smart enough to make some sort of vagueish promise about not annexing Northern Ireland any time soon. Honestly annexing NI is by that point so far down the Dublin government's list of priorities it's nearly unimaginable. The prospect of issuing medals to the dog catchers of a particular small and unimportant Irish Village is considered vastly more important. The set up in NI afterwards is very taught and very patch work with the Dublin Government's goals for NI being's something like.

1) Stop the flood of refugees heading south.
2) Salvage whatever economic potential is possible from NI (Less out of a pure desire for exploitation and more to keep both Ireland and Ulster from completely collapsing.)
3) Get whatever farms and fisheries possible back into action to help prevent famine.
4) Prevent the emergence of too many large scale epidemics of infectious diseases that can effect Ireland.
5) Stop the Sectarian violence.
6) Deal with emerging raider and pirate groups coming out of Britain and continental Europe.
 
I was thinking somehow a situation with a nuclear war where the UK gets decimated but neutral Ireland largely avoids getting hit. Something like a "Cuban Missile War" around 1963 with Britain and much of Western Europe getting decimated but the Soviets not wasting any of their relatively few (compared to later) nukes on the small, weak, and neutral Ireland. Northern Ireland get's hit at least a few times but slightly less badly then the mainland UK. Afterwards a combination of the catastrophe of the war and economic/infrastructure breakdown setting off a full blown sectarian clusterfuck (that makes the OTL troubles look like a friendly disagreement). The UK government and the Northern Irish gov more or less stops existing. Elements of the British military end up melting away and joining one side or the other (mostly the Protestant side but the Catholic militant groups capture a sizable amount of weaponry from what used to be the British armed forces). After a week or so (and a few hundred thousand more deaths) the government of the Republic of Ireland decides to try and intervene more then anything else to just stop the flood of starving desperate refugee's from flooding south into the Republic that is already tottering from the economic effects of the War). The protestant militant groups largely avoid fighting the Irish Defense forces because by then food is starting to get short for everyone and the Irish government is smart enough to make some sort of vagueish promise about not annexing Northern Ireland any time soon. Honestly annexing NI is by that point so far down the Dublin government's list of priorities it's nearly unimaginable. The prospect of issuing medals to the dog catchers of a particular small and unimportant Irish Village is considered vastly more important. The set up in NI afterwards is very taught and very patch work with the Dublin Government's goals for NI being's something like.

1) Stop the flood of refugees heading south.
2) Salvage whatever economic potential is possible from NI (Less out of a pure desire for exploitation and more to keep both Ireland and Ulster from completely collapsing.)
3) Get whatever farms and fisheries possible back into action to help prevent famine.
4) Prevent the emergence of too many large scale epidemics of infectious diseases that can effect Ireland.
5) Stop the Sectarian violence.
6) Deal with emerging raider and pirate groups coming out of Britain and continental Europe.
From memory even at that point we were on the list for the Soviets, think Shannon and Dublin would be the targets. Even if somehow we did dodge the bombs, Ireland is still well fucked in such a situation, the DF would themselves be hard doing ATCP actions in the Republic let alone having an adventure into the North, I mean mean in terms of targets, Belfast would likely be hit taking out the heart of NI's economy and public service, don't know if Derry was on the list (was there still that USN intelligence base there then? NI would be an utter shitshow in such a case, most likely beyond the Republic's ability to deal with.
 
From memory even at that point we were on the list for the Soviets, think Shannon and Dublin would be the targets. Even if somehow we did dodge the bombs, Ireland is still well fucked in such a situation, the DF would themselves be hard doing ATCP actions in the Republic let alone having an adventure into the North, I mean mean in terms of targets, Belfast would likely be hit taking out the heart of NI's economy and public service, don't know if Derry was on the list (was there still that USN intelligence base there then? NI would be an utter shitshow in such a case, most likely beyond the Republic's ability to deal with.

Huh I figured that NI would eat a few nukes at that point but that the relatively small number of Soviet nukes (3000 at the time versus the crazier 25K+ nukes a decade or so later) and the relative unimportance of Ireland might mean that the Republic might avoid getting directly hit (though as you note even without getting nuked directly the Republic would be screwed). I figured that some of the more important Neutral European states (and or the ones closer to the Warsaw pact where the more plentiful shorter ranged tactical nukes could be used) would get hit by then (Austria, Sweden, maybe Finland, Yugoslavia, and the like) but that Ireland might be judged not worth it. A decade later when the Soviets had a fuckload more nukes (and Ireland was a good bit richer) Ireland would probably eat at least a few.
 
Huh I figured that NI would eat a few nukes at that point but that the relatively small number of Soviet nukes (3000 at the time versus the crazier 25K+ nukes a decade or so later) and the relative unimportance of Ireland might mean that the Republic might avoid getting directly hit (though as you note even without getting nuked directly the Republic would be screwed). I figured that some of the more important Neutral European states (and or the ones closer to the Warsaw pact where the more plentiful shorter ranged tactical nukes could be used) would get hit by then (Austria, Sweden, maybe Finland, Yugoslavia, and the like) but that Ireland might be judged not worth it. A decade later when the Soviets had a fuckload more nukes (and Ireland was a good bit richer) Ireland would probably eat at least a few.
Not sure when the decision was made but from memory the Soviets expected Shannon to be used by the US for troop transport and MPA operations, hence why it was to be a target, you could be right on when that was picked though).
 
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