Irish Empire?

I've just got back from a college visiting trip in Virginia yesterday (saw William & Mary and American University) but also went to Busch Gardens on the way. We walked through the Ireland section of the park and I really liked it...

Anyway, Ireland is really close to New France (in Busch Gardens) and the wheels in my head started turning.

I've seen it before with PODs in the 400s and 500s, but what about a colonial Irish Empire right along side the French and Spanish colonial Empire's we're familiar with?

Not too easy, but I figure that maybe with a Catholic alliance of sorts in the 1520s to counter the Reformation, Spain could ally with the Irish, set up a national Irish throne, and land troops in Ireland. This could perhaps nationalize the Irish much earlier than in OTL.

Perhaps the Spaniards give the Irish ships, or they develop them on their own, and soon enough have a colony in Cwebec. Perhaps because he has failed in his campaigns, Sir Humphrey Gilbert settles the first English colony on New Brunswick and the British colonial Empire begins there.

Any thoughts? This is just the beginning of a work in progress.
 
In the present day with modern farming methods, marsh draining and potatoes Ireland has under 6 million people.
Without all of these...

Ireland is just destined to fall under another power, at best it could hope for existing independantly but its not going to be a decent nation in its own right without really messing with geography.

Ireland came out of OTL history pretty well I think- just compare it to the Ainu for instance.
 
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Have Brian Boru be successful solidify his rule of the island (1014-ish) Have his successor launch an expedition to the Viking Hebrides and conquer them. Then either have the High King of Ireland inherit the throne of Scotland, or have Scotland submit as a vassal and become part of the Imperium Scottorum. This, along with immigrants from Ireland, reverses the growth of the english language in Scotland.

Then have this Gaelic Kingdom solidify, fend off the english with french aid, and modernise at roughly the same rate as England. If/When the reformation comes along, "Gaelland" converts to english-style protestantism with the King as head of the church, which begins to thaw relations between the England and Gaelland.

The industrial revolution will change a lot, especially in population, as ireland never really had an industrial revolution. Before the famine there was 6-7 million people or so, probably a similar number in scotland, so lets say 12 million in Gaelland altogether in 1850. An Agricultural revolution comes along and is enthusiastically embraced by landholders in the 1830s. With an industrial revolution inspired by England's and supported by the government (as well as not a little English investment) from the 1850s to the 1880s, the population could get quite a bit higher, say 20-25 million by 1900, and assuming continual growth, 30-35 million in 2000. Most of the industrial and population growth would be on the North and North-East coasts of Ireland, and especially the Glasgow-Lothian area. Lighter industries and more intensive farming would probably be in the general Munster-Leinster area. A native aristocracy and merchant class would provide a demand for more than just a staple crop of potatoes, so even if there is a Potato Blight it won't be anything like as catastrophic.

Gaelland could probably colonise Newfoundland and the St. Lawrence river, and expand out from that gradually, and that will probably be it for settler colonies due to population restrictions. Transportation (shipping out convicts to remote colonies) could serve as a useful method of getting rid of murderers, if the custom of never executing criminals survives. Other than that, probably not much more than a few trading posts and worthless islands. Russia might be able to grab more north american land, say Yukon and British Columbia, maybe with the Gaelic American Colony reaching the pacific at around Seattle.
 
Before the famine there was 6-7 million people or so, probably a similar number in scotland

Nope, 4 in Scotland tops, and Ireland a) wouldn't get as much returns as England from an agricultural revolution and b) lacks the industrial resources to build things to trade for food.
 
This is too hard to do without an earlier POD. I had the idea of a much more extensive Norse invasion of Ireland. ITTL, most of the Norse who went to Iceland in OTL go to Ireland instead. A massive exodus of refugees go to Iceland, which can't support their population. Eventually the Irish go to Greenland, and to the Americas ALA the Norse. Completely ASB, I know.


I think Brian Boru is the last possibly POD that would be even remotely plausible.
 
Nope, 4 in Scotland tops, and Ireland a) wouldn't get as much returns as England from an agricultural revolution and b) lacks the industrial resources to build things to trade for food.
Okay, 10 million in 1850, nearly a thousand years of stability not being taken into account. Scotland has coal, and probably iron, so why couldn't industry develop there (with appropriate economic conditions)? Northern Ireland would become and important link between scotland and ireland, and so would be richer and more populated. Even in OTL there were shipbuilding and textiles industries there.

Perhaps i wasn't too clear: Gaelland at 1900 isn't particularly rich or powerful, it's about as influential as Holland (that is to say, not very) and has all but lost its grip on Canada. Its colonial holdings are meagre, and its industry unevenly spread. The standard of living will improve throughout the twentieth century, although i've probably greatly overestimated the population growth... as The Sicilian said, a smaller, poorer and less successful Portugal, it just tenuously hangs onto its big settler colony for longer.
 
Most of what I say next has pretty much all been said in my first post, but perhaps it can flesh out so maybe I'm just holding out hope that my POD has some legitimacy. Maybe not... but I just want a viable POD so I can have an Irish metropolis in the New World that a young Zachary Taylor can get lost in before he moves to Louisiana to join the Revolution. (I know, butterfly effect. But whatever. I like using Historical Characters in my AH stories.)

OK, say we run with the Portugal thing. Yet, even Portugal carved out a huge territory in Brazil. So forget any other colonies, because Portugal also had the two in Africa, the ports in India, and those few islands in the Pacific.

Say Spain and France form a Catholic Alliance like I've originally pondered and then use Ireland as their leverage against England. The Irish (we can presume) are incredible fighters since they're being fed weapons and materials from two of the foremost powers in Europe. Say that by the time Sir Humphrey Gilbert starts his colony in the New World, Ireland is a freedom-loving kingdom.

I would love to have a union with Scotland, but going with a religious POD, I would see a problem with that as I doubt the Scottish would ever recognize the Pope as having power over their land. So I'd see a problem there.

Does anyone think it could be possible to have a flourishing Ireland even with Spanish-French support? France and Spain could see Gilbertia (yes, made it up on the spot) as a threat to their dominance in the New World. To save men, colonists, and most likely, their own resources, they set Ireland up with a navy.

Of course, all this time, Ireland would be trading frantically with France and Spain as an effort at the two continental powers to expand their markets. I'd see this as perhaps making Ireland more powerful than it would have been with all sorts of new resources. Perhaps not an enormous population, but maybe with some Irish immigration (obviously there was enough of them to come over in boatloads to America till they became the 2nd most populous ethnic group in the nation) down the St. Lawrence River, or maybe as a butterfly, the St. Patrick River, and build Cwebec.

Of course, with all those immigrants and how the Irish breed like rabbits, that should be pretty easy with population in the New World. Then the Irish ship over convicts to a different city (thanks for that tip Cromm) and soon enough come to border New England and New France. Immigrants come over the borders, trading all that they have at Cwebec. Cod fishermen, fur traders, and lumberjacks are all within the arsenal of the merchant army of the Empire of Ireland. I think with all these things, Ireland can do pretty well for themselves and be completely self sufficient by at least 1700 if not 1650.

In short, I think it would be a stretch, but end up like an exponential curve. With Spanish and French support, Ireland could start off slow but soon pick up the pace as more resources were brought into the country.
 
The Irish immigration was in the 19th century, an exodus after the potato famine.


But the Irish did not have the population base to colonize like that, in the 17th century. They would need others to help run the colonies. So French and Spanish colonists would settle in New Ireland along with a trickle of Irishmen. Eventually the non-Irish would form a majority (if not immediately), and then where would the colony's allegiance lie?
 
Would initial trading with Spanish+French increase the Irish home population before the exodus to New Ireland began?
Until the 19th century, probably not. The technology Ireland needed to sustain a higher population just did not exist until then. Maybe even the 20th century technology would be needed, although I really have no idea. See Leej's only post in this thread for what I am talking about.
 

ninebucks

Banned
If we're talking about early PODs, how about an Irish-Welsh union, instead of an Irish-Scottish union, (or even as well as a Irish-Scottish union).

The Welsh valleys are more agriculturally productive than most of Ireland or Scotland, and will be able to support a wider population base than just those two territories. If the Irish managed to keep enough of Wales to themselves, and keep it out of English hands, then the goal of a stronger Ireland is closer.
 
I still think a Brian Boru PoD would be best, as England was changing hands every five minutes back then and this could allow the Irish to establish themselves in Scotland, which would greatly help the development of the country. Wales, unlike Scotland, is visibly a thorn in England's side, and i doubt they could hang onto it for long...

I doubt there would be an Irish exodus to the New World, rather it would be a slow process out of need and greed rather than desperation or a random desire to abandon everything familiar. Say some scottish merchants decide (in the 1500s) to set up a logging colony in Newfoundland to sell to Iceland, and from there the island is gradually colonised with convicts to the west and entrepreneurs to the east. If the tradition of not eating meat on fridays survives in the british protestant churches, then Gaelland has another reason to settle Canada's coasts: Whaling, to provide an alternative to meat. Fur trappers could lead the way down the St. Lawrence, with small trading posts and eventually towns springing up in their wake.
Ireland doesn't and didn't have a terribly large population, but then it was comparable to other pre-industrial european powers. England had around 7 million in 1700 (or so wiki tells me...), but managed to settle the thirteen colonies well enough. In any case, past a certain point the colonial population would be self-sustaining, and would get outside immigration from other countries in addition to Gaelic immigration.
Assuming Quebec's name is derived from the same source, it would probably be more like Cebéich than Cwebec (no W in the irish alphabet to begin with).
 
Ireland doesn't and didn't have a terribly large population, but then it was comparable to other pre-industrial european powers. England had around 7 million in 1700 (or so wiki tells me...), but managed to settle the thirteen colonies well enough. In any case, past a certain point the colonial population would be self-sustaining, and would get outside immigration from other countries in addition to Gaelic immigration.
Assuming Quebec's name is derived from the same source, it would probably be more like Cebéich than Cwebec (no W in the irish alphabet to begin with).

England had 8.5 mil.
Ireland at the same time had 2 mil.
Its not just population its what they do too. Its OK to compare Ireland to the Netherlands population wise (they did have the same number back then) but economically the Netherlands were in such a better position.
Ireland is just too much out on the edge of the continent and with no real decent tradable resources.

But anyway, colonial empires are overrated. More land != more power.
In the TL I'm currently on with I'm considering how to get a Ireland seperated from England that does well but its hard work without any foreign influence.
 
I think the goal is not so much to develop an Ireland without foreign influence, that's pretty much impossible but to develop one that can control the inflx of foreign influences. Scotland's example is very relevant here. There the kings were able to control and channel the influx of anglo-normans, because there was a long-recognized idea of King of all Scotland. Ireland's problem was that nobody ever managed to become the unquestioned High-King of all Ireland for more than a few years at a time.

If you have a functional high-king based in either Munster or Leinster, maybe Meath, who can channel the anglo-normans, you can do the same thing Scotland did. Diarmaid MacMurchada did almost manage to control the first influx of anglo-normans but he died too soon and left something of a vacuum, which drew Henry II of England into the mix.

That's the other thing... direct English involement in Ireland is not a given. A whole pile of factors were at play in 1171.

1) Diarmaid MacMurchada died, leaving no Gaelic King in place to control things.
2)The O'Conchobair kings of Connacht and High-kings of Ireland were on the recieving end of the anglo-normans, not the controlling end, so they couldn't step in when MacMurchada died.
3) Henry II didn't really want to get involved in Ireland but MacMurchada mad a bad choice in Gilbert de Clare. Henry II neither liked nor trusted de Clare and certainly wasn't about to let him carve out a kingdom of his own.
4) Henry really needed someplace to be in 1171-2, while he hid from the fallout of the Beckett murder.

Play with any of these and you can easily achieve an independent Ireland, subject to periodic bouts of English overlordship but no direct control or linkages.

Things to think about.

David
 
England had 8.5 mil.
Ireland at the same time had 2 mil.
Its not just population its what they do too. Its OK to compare Ireland to the Netherlands population wise (they did have the same number back then) but economically the Netherlands were in such a better position.
Ireland is just too much out on the edge of the continent and with no real decent tradable resources.
If they had few resources, then noticed resources across the ocean, surely they'd go for it? I can't imagine setting up a trading post for fur trappers and whalers, and transporting over undesirables as labourers being too expensive, and the profit would allow further development. All you'd need is a few ambitious businessmen and some royal backing.
For population, consider that the area Gaelland is colonising is only a fraction of what Britain colonised throughout north america, and was started in the early 16th century as opposed to the 17th century.
But anyway, colonial empires are overrated. More land != more power.
Ah, but here i'm only trying to make an Irish Empire with some middling influence, not a powerful Ireland. A powerful Ireland would be... damn near impossible, sadly.
 

Germaniac

Donor
All this talk about the Irish not having the population necessary, i belive, is not really that valid. Correct me if im wrong but Portugal did not have a rip roaring population when it set to the seas to conquer the new world.

Id say if your looking at a Brian Boru POD we could see a small, less sucessful, colonial empire in canada, and possibly a couple small colonies once africa becomes the main stage. Of course Ireland and France would have to be very close for an Irish Colony in the new world or else engand might overpower (might, no it will).
 
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