Irish colony founded under Spanish auspices

Thande

Donor
Something Maverick posted has just reminded me how important a role Irish exiles often played in Spain and Spanish America in the 18th century after the Flight of the Wild Geese - everything from colonial administrators (Ambrosio O'Higgins) to nationalist rebels (his son Bernardo) to freakin' Prime Ministers (Richard Wall).

So while they ended up with a fair number of Irish (especially aristocrats) all throughout the Spanish Empire, I'm wondering if there could be established an actual dedicated Irish colony within the Spanish Empire. This might require a larger population from across society to successfully flee the island, but I don't think it's too far beyond the bounds of plausibility.

If it was in North America, you might even get a case where Irish people fake Protestantism to be allowed to settle in the Thirteen Colonies and then secretly follow an established route to the Spanish Irish colony instead.

So where might this colony be established? Given general policy in this era, I'm guessing it would be on a dodgy frontier somewhere, where Spain wanted to extend its power but didn't want to put its own colonists at risk (as Britain did with German refugee settlers in the Appalachians...)
 
It depends. If you'Re aiming at a settlement colony, there's not that much land adequate for European settlement. In Spanish America, I'd recommend Argentina and Chile. And as a second tier, California and Texas.

Argentina and Chile would be best suited - yet voyage their is long and expensive. Probably the Spanish would have to subsidize it, which I doubt they could or would afford over the long term. That makes Texas the most likely outcome.
 

Thande

Donor
Ironically this is just what happened to Texas in my own TL, albeit under different circumstances.

I agree - California is a possibility, as is Patagonia. I wonder about the southern Philippines as well, as at this point the Spanish had yet to conquer and settle part of Mindanao.
 
Argentina or California would be best for a Spanish administrated, Irish-populated colony to be situated. The Irish are just going to assimilated into the local population though I assume the Spanish spoken there would have a certain Irish element to it. :cool:
 
I think it depends on when this colony is stablished. If during middle 18th century a good place would be the Misiones Orientales (Northern Uruguay/Western Rio Grande do Sul) in South America. They needed people to replace the Guarany and Jesuits expelled from there, but at the same time was a region that suffered constant conflict with the Portuguese (who were at the same time trying to populate their nearby lands with Azorians). The Irish would be a good option, because if they succeed they ensure Spanish presence there, if they don't and are conquered/expelled by the Portuguese, well, they weren't Spanish after all.
 

Thande

Donor
I think it depends on when this colony is stablished. If during middle 18th century a good place would be the Misiones Orientales (Northern Uruguay/Western Rio Grande do Sul) in South America. They needed people to replace the Guarany and Jesuits expelled from there, but at the same time was a region that suffered constant conflict with the Portuguese (who were at the same time trying to populate their nearby lands with Azorians). The Irish would be a good option, because if they succeed they ensure Spanish presence there, if they don't and are conquered/expelled by the Portuguese, well, they weren't Spanish after all.

I was thinking along those lines as well...if not the Misiones, was there any other region disputed between Spanish America and Portuguese Brazil?
 
I was thinking along those lines as well...if not the Misiones, was there any other region disputed between Spanish America and Portuguese Brazil?

Well, there were some disputed regions in OTL Eastern Bolivia/Western Mato Grosso, but they were too far away and with difficult access. The areas in Southern Brazil/Northern Uruguay were not richer than those, but also more strategically important, as they could be used to threat the whole area between Buenos Aires and Paraguay.
 
Considering that the Spanish were adverse to letting Catalans settle in the Americas early on I think Irish settlement (as opposed to the Irish individuals that were very common) would be unlikely to begin with, especially in the early years of the Empire.

I do think the Spanish might consider it if they were specifically pressed on some frontier or another, and thus I think the only really likely places are Texas and along the Uruguay river and the rio de la Plata bay (like Gonzaga said). California would not be considered as it seemed pretty safe for most of its history, the Anglo arrival and American seizure happened pretty fast. Neither would Chile as the central Valley (where the farmland is) ended up being owned by spanish speakers pretty quickly, leaving little window for an Irish colony, and it was also very secure so they wouldn't need it. patagonia had some really tough natives, and was pretty much unusable with pre 1830s technology and commercial patterns so thats right out.

Also it would be very much still a Spanish colony, just with Irish townships and maybe a majority - the Spanish weren't stupid ;).
 
My first thought is of an Irish settlement in Darien that is successful because it has the backing of the Spanish and thus a viable trade and supply situation.
 
Considering that the Spanish were adverse to letting Catalans settle in the Americas early on I think Irish settlement (as opposed to the Irish individuals that were very common) would be unlikely to begin with, especially in the early years of the Empire.

I do think the Spanish might consider it if they were specifically pressed on some frontier or another, and thus I think the only really likely places are Texas and along the Uruguay river and the rio de la Plata bay (like Gonzaga said). California would not be considered as it seemed pretty safe for most of its history, the Anglo arrival and American seizure happened pretty fast. Neither would Chile as the central Valley (where the farmland is) ended up being owned by spanish speakers pretty quickly, leaving little window for an Irish colony, and it was also very secure so they wouldn't need it. patagonia had some really tough natives, and was pretty much unusable with pre 1830s technology and commercial patterns so thats right out.

Also it would be very much still a Spanish colony, just with Irish townships and maybe a majority - the Spanish weren't stupid ;).

The early "prohibition" to the Catalans to settle in the Americas was not exactly a prohibition and even less was aimed to the catalans. I mean, it wasn't nothing to do with the catalanacity. The spanish crown was de facto a dual throne until the Nueva Planta Decrees and the Americas were part of the crown of Castile, thus castilian subjects had the right to settle and commerce there, while the subjects of the crown of Aragon (not only the catalans) hadn't as hadn't, for example, the russians, because under the castilian laws they were foreigners, and vice-versa. Also note that the more discontents with to the Nueva Planta decrees were in the crown of Aragon, and specially in Catalonia (in fact they were, in part, a punishment against the aragonese because their support to the Archduke Charles)

So, in theory, the fact they are irish wouldn't be a problem to Spain with the condition the become subjects of the king of Spain, specially if it offers geostrategic advantages. And we are in pre-nationalist times, "nationality" is not a matter, what matters are vassalage and faith.

OTOH, I was thinking, besides other mainland options, there is any possibility to settle the Malvinas with irishmen:p?
 
Irish nobles are one thing but masses of Irish commoners?
I'd think the Spanish might have some trust issues to get over- the English see Ireland as full of catholics waiting to strike, the Spanish would see their Irish as English waiting to strike.
I'd think they would want to put them somewhere well away from the English. Just in case they still have some lingering sentiments.

Maybe they could be useful in trying to catholocise a area?
A ill thought out policy if it is done (why should we go catholic? Those bloody immigrants are all catholics!) but not beyond the realms of possibility.

Any marshy lands in the Americas where the Spanish might think people used to marshes would be handy? Florida? (but then you've the proximity issue...)
 

Susano

Banned
Hrm. Going by how well the German colony founded under Spanish auspices went - if we use that as base, then I wouldnt give any Irish colony under Spanish auspices a great chance ;) Granted, Kleinvenedig was not only a settlement but a fief, but still...
 
Irish nobles are one thing but masses of Irish commoners?
I'd think the Spanish might have some trust issues to get over- the English see Ireland as full of catholics waiting to strike, the Spanish would see their Irish as English waiting to strike.
I'd think they would want to put them somewhere well away from the English. Just in case they still have some lingering sentiments.

Maybe they could be useful in trying to catholocise a area?
A ill thought out policy if it is done (why should we go catholic? Those bloody immigrants are all catholics!) but not beyond the realms of possibility.

Any marshy lands in the Americas where the Spanish might think people used to marshes would be handy? Florida? (but then you've the proximity issue...)


I'm not sure if I'm being accurate or not but the Irish would have preferred being as far away from the English even if need be, they have to leave their homeland. Vice versa with the English wanting as many Irish to leave their shores if need be though the Spanish as previously mentioned are uncomfortable to the idea of bringing foreigners though Roman Catholic to immigrate en masse to their territories especially those with connections to the English. I suggest the Spanish send them to the Philippines; of course the environment is not very friendly to Europeans but hey they can give them other incentives to move in to the area.
 
I agree - California is a possibility, as is Patagonia.

Depends on the timeframe. I have a feeling that it's going to be a much much tougher fight than you think it will be. The Platineans and Chileans had to work hard to grab Patagonia, and even that was pretty late, and involved mass murder.
 
Settling Irish Catholics in the heavily Muslim regions of the southern Philippines would be interesting, as it would seem to be a reversal of roles. And in general, when roles reverse like that the oppressees become quite handy oppressors.
 
Settling Irish Catholics in the heavily Muslim regions of the southern Philippines would be interesting, as it would seem to be a reversal of roles. And in general, when roles reverse like that the oppressees become quite handy oppressors.

Wasn't the south more or less independent from Spanish control? If so, it would be beneficial to send in thousands of Irish men as military settlers to these Muslim areas.
 

Kosta

Banned
Though I know it's not really Spanish, perhaps it's Mexico that will take in the Irish settlers. OTL the Mexican Government took in Anglo-Saxon Southern-Americans and gave them special "somethings" (I don't remember what, my APUS final was a month ago :eek:), and the condition was they convert to Catholicism. So, with the Irish already being Catholic, perhaps the people who in OTL decided to use Americans as Texan colonists might use the Irish.

Or perhaps you could use the same scenario for Spain-they want Texas colonized as a buffer when perhaps Napoleon retakes Lousianne, or they just want Texas colonized in general.

So all in all, if my opinion matters, I'd throw my lot in with Texas.
 
I think it depends on when this colony is stablished. If during middle 18th century a good place would be the Misiones Orientales (Northern Uruguay/Western Rio Grande do Sul) in South America. They needed people to replace the Guarany and Jesuits expelled from there, but at the same time was a region that suffered constant conflict with the Portuguese (who were at the same time trying to populate their nearby lands with Azorians). The Irish would be a good option, because if they succeed they ensure Spanish presence there, if they don't and are conquered/expelled by the Portuguese, well, they weren't Spanish after all.


Since its likely to have to be pre 1800 I would think this is the best place...to secure the borderlands with Portuguese Brasil. The other alternative would be Sp. Luisiana and New Orleans. Strengthening the Spanish presence there against the US. But the former is better.
 
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