Ireland still in the UK

Suppose British authorities caught on earlier the rebellion never is but it's enough for Ireland's home rule to not be pushed through, we shall not bend to the will of terrorist, something like that, Ireland truges through WW1 unhappy but maybe gets some level of autonomy granted through a Belfast assembly not based out of Dublin, WW2 breaks out the Nazis bomb the shit out of Ireland too greater feelings of unity come Ireland's countryside becomes a haven for British children, the fifties, sixties, religion becomes less and less paramount in society, today Ireland is just another part of the UK, not anymore unhappy about it than the Welsh.
 
Suppose British authorities caught on earlier the rebellion never is but it's enough for Ireland's home rule to not be pushed through, we shall not bend to the will of terrorist, something like that, Ireland truges through WW1 unhappy but maybe gets some level of autonomy granted through a Belfast assembly not based out of Dublin, WW2 breaks out the Nazis bomb the shit out of Ireland too greater feelings of unity come Ireland's countryside becomes a haven for British children, the fifties, sixties, religion becomes less and less paramount in society, today Ireland is just another part of the UK, not anymore unhappy about it than the Welsh.

There are ways to get Ireland to stay in the UK. Not granting them Home Rule and refusing to compromise are not amongst them.

Its being uncompromising assholes that doomed British efforts to maintain the Empire in Ireland.
 
Probably any early home rule bill could've done the trick. By early I mean well before WW1 - ideally, in the late 19c, at the same time people were mooting the concept of an Imperial federation. So you'd have Britain (later England, Scotland, and Wales), Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the Cape Colony as subnational entities of one state [EDIT: Newfoundland would've been a separate component, since it only joined Canada in 1949].

Giving home rule to just Ireland, without the dominions, is inherently unstable. We see this today in UK politics, where there's home rule in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Since the vast majority of the UK population is in England, it leads to asymmetric devolution, which in turn leads to English Votes on English Laws ugliness. The only way out is devolution to the regions of England, but those don't always have as strong identities as do Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, and on top of that Labour totally botched the implementation. Something similar would've happened if the UK had given Ireland home rule in 1900 or so - there was plenty of anti-Irish racism, and within a few years you'd see British Votes on British Laws agitation. Scotland rejected independence recently, but it was close, and Scots do not face nearly the same hostility from England that the Irish did a hundred years ago.
 
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Well, I'll be the one to say it: if you just want the territory, there's nothing that the Irish could really have done if Britain decided to just kick all the Irish out. You'd have a much larger diaspora, and the island would have few enough Irish that it'd be English majority.

This is not really far off from genocide, but it'd work.
 
Suppose British authorities caught on earlier the rebellion never is but it's enough for Ireland's home rule to not be pushed through, we shall not bend to the will of terrorist, something like that, Ireland truges through WW1 unhappy but maybe gets some level of autonomy granted through a Belfast assembly not based out of Dublin, WW2 breaks out the Nazis bomb the shit out of Ireland too greater feelings of unity come Ireland's countryside becomes a haven for British children, the fifties, sixties, religion becomes less and less paramount in society, today Ireland is just another part of the UK, not anymore unhappy about it than the Welsh.

I can't see how any of that ends up with Ireland being a happy member of the UK, some of your points just seem to be rather mindless issues being created (like the Belfast assembly (when they didn't even have Government buildings for the NI Government in the 20's). Also not sure how getting "bombed to shit" would increase unity feelings.
 
The easiest way I could think of would not be progressing down the Home Rule (and later dominion) route which eventually leads to Scotland and Wales doing the same, with there problems later developing with how much population England itself has.

Instead I would advocate for a devolvement in general to local government in all of the UK granting them greater powers which solves the main issues of accountability, while maintaining the supremacy of the UK parliament over the entire country. Thus you would have local government, regional government the next level up (I believe studies have said governance between 1 and 2 million people is most efficient although that's the late 20C to modern times), and the UK parliament at the top.

I'm not sure if the thought that would be needed for this to develop can happen though.
 
its always been my gut feeling that a majority even in 1919 didn't support independence, SF won because the IPP fell apart due to massive scandal and their was popular anger at the British government over the draft, but if you look at the public reaction to the Easter Rising I think you get a clearer view of how the general Irish public felt, more Irish men were members of the RIC than the IRA during the war

any ways I think what happened was both the last moment that Violent revolution could have happened in an more and more democratic UK and a perfect storm as far as Ireland and the UK go, but by the time the UK came to the table the IRA was almost out of weapons, I believe they had like 3 weeks of ammo on hand and no way to get more, so push back the UK seeking to talk to the IRA and their military would fall apart.
 
Earlier Catholic emancipation would be a good start, especially if that significantly moved the timeline up on home rule.

Well, I'll be the one to say it: if you just want the territory, there's nothing that the Irish could really have done if Britain decided to just kick all the Irish out. You'd have a much larger diaspora, and the island would have few enough Irish that it'd be English majority.

This is not really far off from genocide, but it'd work.
It'd be outright genocide, not something close to it. And ethnic cleansing/genocide of the scale is likely ASB without some sort of POD from long long ago that would create a vastly different British Isles.
 
its always been my gut feeling that a majority even in 1919 didn't support independence, SF won because the IPP fell apart due to massive scandal and their was popular anger at the British government over the draft, but if you look at the public reaction to the Easter Rising I think you get a clearer view of how the general Irish public felt, more Irish men were members of the RIC than the IRA during the war

any ways I think what happened was both the last moment that Violent revolution could have happened in an more and more democratic UK and a perfect storm as far as Ireland and the UK go, but by the time the UK came to the table the IRA was almost out of weapons, I believe they had like 3 weeks of ammo on hand and no way to get more, so push back the UK seeking to talk to the IRA and their military would fall apart.
The thing is the same people spitting at those IRA men later ended up joining them and offering shelter and sucour because the British response was a rash of executions and thousands of arrests and later on state sanctioned arson and assassination against anyone suspected of being a Nationalist.


SF did well because the IPP could no longer with a straight face say that London gave half a shit about law and order that did not benefit Protestant Unionists.
 
As others have said you need a pre 1900 POD, either Ireland becomes majority Protestant through conversion or a more benevolent British policy, certainly emancipation after the Act of Union and a better response to the Famine. Irish Nationalism really took off in the post Famine years because of the belief that Ireland had been abandoned and needed to control its own destiny leading to the calls for an Irish Parliament. If that had ever come into being then Ireland would have been like the Old Dominions and maintained close links to Britain. To keep it in the UK you need to prevent the demand for Home Rule becoming so strong in the first place.
 
As others have said after 1900 is rather difficult, before 1900 is somewhat easier. For that the two main points of divergence I can think or are

  • Shortly after the Acts of Union 1707 both houses of the Irish Parliament sent a joint congratulatory message stating 'May God put it in your royal heart to add greater strength and lustre to your crown, by a still more comprehensive Union', have someone take up the apparent invitation and push through an Act of Union for Ireland ninety-odd years ahead of our timeline
  • George III suffers an opportune bout of mental instability which sees the Prince Regent take over and grant royal assent for Pitt's Catholic emancipation act in 1801 as part of the quid pro quo for the Acts of Union 1800
Either of those have the potential to get the ball rolling and hopefully defuse a number of future issues or at least deal with them faster than happened in our timeline.


Well, I'll be the one to say it: if you just want the territory, there's nothing that the Irish could really have done if Britain decided to just kick all the Irish out. You'd have a much larger diaspora, and the island would have few enough Irish that it'd be English majority.
IIRC during the potato famine it worked out something like two or three times more expensive to ship in the food needed to keep a person alive as it was to buy passage the United States as an emigrant. Perhaps the government or a group of charitable individuals come together and offer free one-way passage to the US as an alternative? It's not going to come close to emptying out the place but it could hopefully avoid a number of deaths, and the ill-feelings they generated, and take some pressure off of the population figures. If they were feeling especially sneaky they could even target it at areas like Ulster to help change the religious-cultural demographics.
 
If you can avoid WW1, the Government of Ireland Act 1914 will be seen through to the end rather than being postponed.
 
If you can avoid WW1, the Government of Ireland Act 1914 will be seen through to the end rather than being postponed.

Perhaps, but it wouldn't surprise me if it led to civil war in Ulster.

I don't think you can have a United Ireland under a devolved parliament, I think Ulster will have to be excluded from home rule. The IPP won't be happy, but they'd likely end up accepting it as the only way Home Rule can work.
 
I don't think a PoD after 1900 is too hard - I think the Third Home Rule Bill could have settled the matter peacefully.

Whilst a lot of people point to the opposition, the gun-running, and the signing of the Covenant, I think this is taken out of the context of 1912-1914 more than a little.

The problem with the Ulster Crisis is that, yes, it might have led to civil war, but it might not have done. There's a serious chance that, if it hadn't been shelved (if, say Asquith and others had pushed it through the Commons in 1912-1913 instead of waiting those few critical months that saw WWI overtake it) it would have settled the issue.

There were a lot of people in Ulster and throughout Ireland who said they would fight it - but SAYING is very different to DOING. Yes, there were drills of volunteers, yes there were plans and plots, yes there were officers threatening to resign and fight with the rebels - but none of this happened OTL and Irish history alone is littered with examples of plots that, when it came to crunch time, people never turned out for en-masse. In likelihood what you get is something similar to the Easter Rising in 1913, where parts of Ulster rise up, and the Government suppress it. Without the wartime anxiety of 1916 this rising wouldn't be so bloodily quashed and public sympathy would remain with Westminster, seeing the devolved Home Rule government stay in place.

People forget that, whilst the Ulster opposition gained some support, there were considerable political groups across the British Isles that were in favour of a peaceful solution - even if that meant forcing the issue against the will of radicals in Ulster.
 
It'd be outright genocide, not something close to it. And ethnic cleansing/genocide of the scale is likely ASB without some sort of POD from long long ago that would create a vastly different British Isles.

The British pretty much allowed the Irish to either hop on a ship or starve during the potato famine, so I'm not seeing the ASB here. Put some official support behind emigration, a great big stick hidden behind a carrot, and you'd have an Ireland with minority Irish.
 
The British pretty much allowed the Irish to either hop on a ship or starve during the potato famine, so I'm not seeing the ASB here. Put some official support behind emigration, a great big stick hidden behind a carrot, and you'd have an Ireland with minority Irish.
I doubt you'd ever get close to their being a minority, IIRC there was just way too much of an imbalance between the two, but you could certainly "decrease the surplus population" as Scrooge might have put it. Think I might start a separate thread about the idea of subsidised emigration.
 
Perhaps, but it wouldn't surprise me if it led to civil war in Ulster.

I don't think you can have a United Ireland under a devolved parliament, I think Ulster will have to be excluded from home rule. The IPP won't be happy, but they'd likely end up accepting it as the only way Home Rule can work.
The six counties were to be excluded under the bill until their governance could be worked out.
 
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