Ireland joins WW2 and reunifies

If the battle of the Atlantic was worse those Atlantic ports would have been very tempting. And given the tacit disgust the American administration had for Ireland’s conduct in WWII, there wouldn’t be too much of a problem with world opinion. As for payment, well yes maybe no remuneration, but then as now, the Irish knew it is the mainland, “British”, taxpayer who is paying for Ireland’s real world defence.
You might want to better understand US politics in 1940 and the influence and power of the Irish-American block.
 
If the battle of the Atlantic was worse those Atlantic ports would have been very tempting. And given the tacit disgust the American administration had for Ireland’s conduct in WWII, there wouldn’t be too much of a problem with world opinion. As for payment, well yes maybe no remuneration, but then as now, the Irish knew it is the mainland, “British”, taxpayer who is paying for Ireland’s real world defence.

If the Battle of the Atlantic was worse, perhaps Coastal Command could have been prioritised over Bomber Command to increase VLR MPA, or the Escort Carrier project prioritised to bring support to the convoys sooner than OTL. Either would make much more sense and be far more readily available and supportable than the occupation you see to think was the better option which would only have drained UK resources. Again, by this stage the ports would have been of limited use and there were No airbases available/within the Treaty Port lands.
 
OK heres a point of departure.

Michael Collins isnt assassinated by anti-Treaty forces.

de Valera is thus a minor figure, doesnt become President of the Council, and there is no Anglo-Irish trade war)

As a result, the UK keeps the Treaty Ports. (Indeed, during the negotiations Collins saw how vital it was, not just for Britain, but Ireland as well, to keep the atlantic approaches well defended in time of war).

The Irish Free State, without Dev, while not as belligerent towards the UK as in OTL, still declares neutrality, but the presence of the Treaty Ports means it suffers from German bombing, and it declares war in 1941.
 
OK heres a point of departure.

Michael Collins isnt assassinated by anti-Treaty forces.

de Valera is thus a minor figure, doesnt become President of the Council, and there is no Anglo-Irish trade war)

As a result, the UK keeps the Treaty Ports. (Indeed, during the negotiations Collins saw how vital it was, not just for Britain, but Ireland as well, to keep the atlantic approaches well defended in time of war).

The Irish Free State, without Dev, while not as belligerent towards the UK as in OTL, still declares neutrality, but the presence of the Treaty Ports means it suffers from German bombing, and it declares war in 1941.

Collins not being assassinated doesn't automatically side line Dev, it just means that the two of them face off. You'd need Collins to build CnaG's political base (I mean for example while CnaG's Ardnacrusha power scheme in the 20's was a huge investment for the state at massive cost, FF's policies had much more that the average voter could engage with by the 30's) to avoid a FF victory at some stage (whether it's '32 or not). As I've also pointed out the CnaG government wanted the Ports back as well (for example the '27 talks), what Collins would have done who knows, would he have argued as I've posted that Ireland should have it's own Navy?

As for the Treaty Ports, it comes down to who the Irish public and Government blame, Germany for bombing, or the UK for holding the Ports in the first place, either way by '41 (assuming post Pearl Harbour?) then the value is declining, as I've said you are talking time for them to be brought back into any credible usage other than just an anchorage facility.
 

hipper

Banned
If the Battle of the Atlantic was worse, perhaps Coastal Command could have been prioritised over Bomber Command to increase VLR MPA, or the Escort Carrier project prioritised to bring support to the convoys sooner than OTL. Either would make much more sense and be far more readily available and supportable than the occupation you see to think was the better option which would only have drained UK resources. Again, by this stage the ports would have been of limited use and there were No airbases available/within the Treaty Port lands.


The only requirement for the use of Irish bases would be some event that means that Bristol and the south-west approaches have to be used to receive convoys. But it would be air bases in the south west of Ireland that would be required not the treaty ports. I doubt Churchill would have blanched at the operation if it became necessary, (he waged war against Vichy France) but there would have to a real need for Irish bases before the cabinet agreed with him.

Quite agree that the neglect of coastal command was quite disgraceful.
 
Care to read any historical works on Northern Ireland? You'll find lots of evidence and reports of persistent discrimination against the Catholic community and violence by the authorities.

Compare this the RC % of Northern Ireland has continued to grow since its inception & within 10 yrs 90% of P’s were ethnically cleansed by De Valera.
 
To be fair to Basil Brooke, this was a response to De Valera's statement that Ireland/Eire was "a Catholic state for a Catholic people". "Well" responded Brooke "We will be a Protestant state for a Protestant people". Sadly, discrimination and violence there undoubtedly was.
Fair point. As has been said by other posters, removing De Valera would be necessary (or at least helpful) but not sufficient. There's no guarantee that other plausible leaders of the Free State wouldn't be as accommodative of the RC Church, though they might not have been so explicit about it.

As you say, regardless of the verbiage, the reality in the Six Counties was oppressive for the minority community.
 
you made a direct comparison stating that for Catholics living in Northern Ireland was like living in Nazi Germany. it’s ridiculous and indefensible.

PS for some of us History books are not required.
It wasn't my intention to imply that Catholics in Northern Ireland were treated exactly like Jews in Nazi Germany or even like Afro-Americans in the Deep South. However, they were subject to official discrimination in jobs, housing and electoral rights. Gerrymandering is an Irish invention and was practiced extensively by the Northern Ireland government.

Given that in 1940 people didn't know the full extent of Nazi Germany's persecution of the Jews and other "undesirables", for Catholics experiencing such oppression and their relatives in the Free State, the idea that the UK was morally between than Germany would not have been obvious.

Interestingly, while Nazi Germany was by our lights a nasty tyranny, for the ordinary, apolitical member of the "Volk", the state I the late 1930s may well have been experienced as more benign than the UK laissez faire regime. Try Mark Mazower's Dark Continent for further reference.
 
Compare this the RC % of Northern Ireland has continued to grow since its inception & within 10 yrs 90% of P’s were ethnically cleansed by De Valera.
There was no active ethnic cleansing. Protestants weren't discriminated against in employment or social housing nor (after the Civil War) driven out of their homes. Many left because they had been part of the British administration or armed forces and so went "home". Others simply felt British rather than Irish or thought (probably correctly given the economic weakness of the Free State) job opportunities were better in the UK
 
And one Winston Churchill at the Admiralty was of the view that if the Army would not obey orders the Navy would and he would send them to shell Belfast in event of an Ulster rebellion
Is there any evidence meeting academic standards for this statement? It doesn't fit Churchill's actions later but you could well be right. Churchill wasn't exactly consistent in his views!
 
Given that in 1940 people didn't know the full extent of Nazi Germany's persecution of the Jews and other "undesirables", for Catholics experiencing such oppression and their relatives in the Free State, the idea that the UK was morally between than Germany would not have been obvious.

As the Northern Catholic main character's father says in Brian Moore's book The Emperor of Ice Cream (which was based on Moore's own wartime experiences) "when it comes to grinding down minorities, the German jackboot isn't half as hard as the heel of John Bull."
 
De Valera's government was so tyrannical towards Protestants that Ireland's first president Douglas Hyde was a Protestant.

Check the public records office in Dublin there you will find the facts of ethnic cleansing.

Anyhow regardless of the sectarian feelings / beliefs & foolish notions Ireland shouldv’e never partitioned. Either Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael would have to go into minority’s government with the Ulster Unionists or whatever new name they come up with, so really we’d all be better off regardless of which side of the fence you’re on.
 
Well, it wasn’t the “Irish Free State” of world war 2, frolicking in their moicro natiobslism.
If the Battle of the Atlantic was worse, perhaps Coastal Command could have been prioritised over Bomber Command to increase VLR MPA, or the Escort Carrier project prioritised to bring support to the convoys sooner than OTL. Either would make much more sense and be far more readily available and supportable than the occupation you see to think was the better option which would only have drained UK resources. Again, by this stage the ports would have been of limited use and there were No airbases available/within the Treaty Port lands.
I suppose it comes down what is the most effective use of strategic bombers- attacking German war industry or protecting Atlantic convoys. Regarding escort carriers- there was a war in the pacific. All comes down to risk and reward.
 
There was no active ethnic cleansing. Protestants weren't discriminated against in employment or social housing nor (after the Civil War) driven out of their homes. Many left because they had been part of the British administration or armed forces and so went "home". Others simply felt British rather than Irish or thought (probably correctly given the economic weakness of the Free State) job opportunities were better in the UK
...or perhaps they felt that being "Irish" and "British" shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
 
You might want to better understand US politics in 1940 and the influence and power of the Irish-American block.
Yes- that's why the IRA was so quiet in the 1950s, because of the powerful Irish American lobby trumping the sentiments of non-Irish Americans about Ireland's conduct in WWII.
 
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