Ireland joins WW2 and reunifies

Good points.

And while we might seem to have drifted from the OP, we are at a point where we know why Ireland couldn't join WW2 without a POD at least in the early 1930s and probably earlier.

So, are there any post 1923 PODs that could make Irish entry plausible?

Given how enthusiastically Ireland took to the various UN peacekeeping missions, it seems like their could be some potential if the League of Nations "branding" was kept by the Allies. Not enough by itself but a useful way of selling it to the populace.
 
Given how enthusiastically Ireland took to the various UN peacekeeping missions, it seems like their could be some potential if the League of Nations "branding" was kept by the Allies. Not enough by itself but a useful way of selling it to the populace.

Given what we provided to the Congo I shudder to think of what we'd have sent any forces into action with tbh. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Collin's had been interested in some sort of national service, could post Civil War something be done (not just limited to the DF) that would create a greater engagement with the global situations?
 
A community that suffered discrimination and violence from the Unionist government. Which boasted it ran a "Protestant state for a Protestant people".
To be fair to Basil Brooke, this was a response to De Valera's statement that Ireland/Eire was "a Catholic state for a Catholic people". "Well" responded Brooke "We will be a Protestant state for a Protestant people". Sadly, discrimination and violence there undoubtedly was.
 

hipper

Banned
@MKD
Can I point out that three of the counties of Ulster were part of Eire/Irish Free State? And there as a substantial community of Catholics/Nationalists in the Six Counties, forming the majority in large parts of Fermanagh and Tyrone at least.

A community that suffered discrimination and violence from the Unionist government. Which boasted it ran a "Protestant state for a Protestant people".

So, for a lot of people in Ulster, the British state was in 1940 not noticeably better than Hitler's Germany.

I'm not aware of large numbers of refugees fleeing Fermanagh and Tyrone in 1939 - 45 so common sense suggests you are wrong, and making a very dubious comparison.
 

hipper

Banned
It does seem that of all the neutral countries in the Second World War Ireland gets picked out as the worst betrayal. Reading contemporary commentary there's a sense that the UK was owed something by Ireland.

Of course, it also extends to the insulting notion that desertion from a body like the Defence Forces to a real army can hardly be considered a crime.

Edit: No one ever throws around accusations that the Swiss or the Swedes actually wanted the Germans to win.

yes, they do Letting Trainloads of Soldiers through your country smacks of collusion. The Swedish attitude became less cooperative with the Nazis as the war progressed. They still did not express condolences on Hitlers Death though.
 
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yes, they do Letting Trainloads of Soldiers through your country smacks of collusion. The Sweedish attitude became less cooperative with the Nazis as the war progressed. They still did not express condolences on Hitlers Death though.

And what does, sharing intelligence, U boat sightings, weather etc and allowing service personnel go free smack of? As to Hitler's death perhaps not, but Portugal (you know one of England's oldest allies isn't it) did order state flags lowered to half mast on his death, another diplomatic act of respect isn't it?
 

hipper

Banned
And what does, sharing intelligence, U boat sightings, weather etc and allowing service personnel go free smack of? As to Hitler's death perhaps not, but Portugal (you know one of England's oldest allies isn't it) did order state flags lowered to half mast on his death, another diplomatic act of respect isn't it?

I was slagging Swedish Collaboration really but I thought DV's actions on Hitters death was trolling... :)
 
Deserting the state during a national emergency is highly immoral.

Not a single German deserter was immoral for deserting the Nazi state.

There is nothing inherent in the state that makes it moral and that it should be protected. Blind patriotism is disgusting. Only moral states are worthy of protection.
 
Not a single German deserter was immoral for deserting the Nazi state.

There is nothing inherent in the state that makes it moral and that it should be protected. Blind patriotism is disgusting. Only moral states are worthy of protection.

Find me a "moral state"?
 
Very probably. And that was something Churchill wouldn't and couldn't deliver.

Churchill was more that happy to get rid of the 6 counties that why he had to flee Belfast as the ‘B’ men were going to shoot him.

Like I’ve stated many times ‘The Home Rule’ was passed as law. Regardless of the Curragh Incident the British Army had the backing of Parliament to impose it on Ulster. Military Intelligence on the ground were convinced the UVF was only a bluff.

90+% of Irish men are just like 90+% of other nationalities, we’re only interested in putting spuds on the table. The RIC were 95% catholic yet they carried out more ‘reprisals’ than the B&T’s. it’s who shouts the loudest gets the followers.
 
And one Winston Churchill at the Admiralty was of the view that if the Army would not obey orders the Navy would and he would send them to shell Belfast in event of an Ulster rebellion
 
I'm not aware of large numbers of refugees fleeing Fermanagh and Tyrone in 1939 - 45 so common sense suggests you are wrong, and making a very dubious comparison.
Care to read any historical works on Northern Ireland? You'll find lots of evidence and reports of persistent discrimination against the Catholic community and violence by the authorities.

You might as well say that the lack of refugees fleeing into Mexico from the Deep South proves there was no discrimination against Afro-Americans there.
 
Regardless of a proposed unification of the island of Ireland about 5000 Irish soldiers & around 37000 civilians volunteered to serve in the British Army in WWII. The soldiers were treated abysmally by their government after the war. On their return home they were formally dismissed from the Irish army, stripped of all pay and pension rights, and prevented from finding work by being banned for seven years from any employment paid for by state or government funds. The civilians were "blacklisted" and ostracized. Their names were published and they were considered almost as traitors.

The Irish government did not officially pardon the men they saw as deserters until 2012. Such behavior hardly suggested the Irish leadership at the time was willing to support the allied cause. I am afraid my views on Irish neutrality during WWII don't make for polite reading.

I'm reminded of that old cliche about the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But that policy could become self defeating when the enemy of my enemy is the devil. Or Hitler.
 
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hipper

Banned
Care to read any historical works on Northern Ireland? You'll find lots of evidence and reports of persistent discrimination against the Catholic community and violence by the authorities.

You might as well say that the lack of refugees fleeing into Mexico from the Deep South proves there was no discrimination against Afro-Americans there.

you made a direct comparison stating that for Catholics living in Northern Ireland was like living in Nazi Germany. it’s ridiculous and indefensible.

PS for some of us History books are not required.
 
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I'll ask you again then, what's the view of your nations military on Desertion?

And my view isn't compelling? Lets think that one through can we?
1. If the UK invades, then the Irish Army is going to fight however unsuccessful that would be, so Irish military personnel are going to die.
2. If the UK invades, Irish civilians are going to die (both from resisting an invasion and perhaps due to British retaliation which had occurred in the living history of those civilians).
3. Does an invading UK just let the Irish Government (which they weren't exactly fond of, see Dev and Churchill's relationship) just continue on even if said Government is hostile after you know being invaded, or does the UK exert force in that regard as well, as argued by the Unionists of NI.
4. If the UK takes the ports, then Ireland becomes a legitimate target for attack by Germany, given that the UK failed to adequately defend Belfast during the first bombing raids there, the assumption that an invasion force would provide adequate defences for Ireland outside of their own needs, seems unlikely (and remember Cork the second city of Ireland is just a few minutes flying from Cobh).
5. I would highly doubt that a UK that felt the need to invade and occupy areas of Ireland would feel any obligation to pay anything either during or after the war in regards to using Irish Ports (they didn't when they held they from memory post '22).
6. I would also highly doubt that if after an invasion and usage of them during WW2, that in 1945 the UK would have just said "cheers lads, we're out of here", which again might be a small issue for Ireland, and even if they did the Anglo-Irish relationship would be beyond toxic for at least another generation.

I find it a bit difficult to assume given how bad the living history of Anglo-Irish relations were in the period that an invasion is going to end well.
If the battle of the Atlantic was worse those Atlantic ports would have been very tempting. And given the tacit disgust the American administration had for Ireland’s conduct in WWII, there wouldn’t be too much of a problem with world opinion. As for payment, well yes maybe no remuneration, but then as now, the Irish knew it is the mainland, “British”, taxpayer who is paying for Ireland’s real world defence.
 
If the battle of the Atlantic was worse those Atlantic ports would have been very tempting. And given the tacit disgust the American administration had for Ireland’s conduct in WWII, there wouldn’t be too much of a problem with world opinion. As for payment, well yes maybe no remuneration, but then as now, the Irish knew it is the mainland, “British”, taxpayer who is paying for Ireland’s real world defence.

From who exactly?

Anyway I'm fairly sure you're trolling at this point.
 
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