Ireland joins WW2 and reunifies

I went and looked, it's from Daire Brunicardi, "Haulbowline, The Naval Base & ships of Cork Harbour". In it he quotes a position paper drawn up before a proposed 1927 Intergovernmental meeting drawn up by the Army staff that consisted of "1 protected Light Cruiser, 4 V class Destroyers, 1 Flower Class sloop, 8 "P" boats , 4 MTB's, 2 4,000 ton fleet "oil tank steamers", 2 steamers for mine/net laying and an ocean going tug" in total. The suggestion being it was modeled on other Dominion forces, and was to take over the defence of Irish Waters from the RN.

The meeting occurred in April 1927 and collapsed almost immediately due to Admiral Pound stating that he could only talk about Coastal forces under Article 6 of the Treaty and the Irish demanding that (guess what) the Treaty Ports being open to discussion. The RN counter offer was 8-20 "Mersey" class Minsweeping trawlers, or "twin screw 800 ton" minesweepers, though there's no class name (4" gun, a 12lb mount and light AA with a speed of 16 knots)
The '800 ton' ships were probably Hunt class.
 
The '800 ton' ships were probably Hunt class.

Yeah that's most likely the class by the look of it, as I've said I think it was something being floated, again in that book there's some view that the combination of asking to take control of Irish waters and the Treaty Ports were to create Poison Pills to get the UK to refuse to accept it and therefore to avoid having to spend on defence (so nothing much different that RL...), but even if the UK suggestions had been taken up you would have been talking about a radically different Irish military.
 
It does seem that of all the neutral countries in the Second World War Ireland gets picked out as the worst betrayal. Reading contemporary commentary there's a sense that the UK was owed something by Ireland.

Of course, it also extends to the insulting notion that desertion from a body like the Defence Forces to a real army can hardly be considered a crime.

Edit: No one ever throws around accusations that the Swiss or the Swedes actually wanted the Germans to win.

Yeah. Claire Willis goes into this sort of thing in her book That Neutral Island where she points to a very creepy passage in The Cruel Sea where Nicholas Monsarrat basically compares Ireland to an unfaithful wife to Britain:

"There are degrees of neutrality, just as there are degrees of unfaithfulness. One may forgive a woman an occasional cold spell, but not her continued and smiling repose in other men's arms."
 
Yeah. Claire Willis goes into this sort of thing in her book That Neutral Island where she points to a very creepy passage in The Cruel Sea where Nicholas Monsarrat basically compares Ireland to an unfaithful wife to Britain:

That was actually one of the exact passages I was thinking of.
 
once thing that has always puzzled me

I get the whole Ireland - UK beef, and i know the reasons why Ireland is'nt going to join the Allied cause for the good of Britain

But after 7/12/41 why did'nt they jump in then, they could have insisted on no UK or CW troops on Irish soil but took the $$$ from Uncle Sam - whatever price they charge would be worth it to get access to the treaty ports and possible airbases, anything to help close the gap
 
Yes. To be fair, he was a bit of an outcast from the local community anyway, having had disagreements with a number of local worthies, so the local ostracisation was pretty much to be expected, and his helping the British fight against Germany may have simply been an excuse for the locals to make their feelings known, rather than it being a reason.

Government difficulties were at a low level, with police harassment over many issues (some of which were undoubtedly justified, given his relationship with legalities), but which did seem, by all accounts, to amount to victimisation. Whether one regards local police as being "sources from the Government" or members of the local community is something of an open question.

Whatever the actuality (and I emphasise that he was not the most reliable of sources), the reaction he received in the immediate aftermath of the war (in which he joined up to fight against Hitler and Germany, so naturally he spent most of his time out in Burma) turned someone who had actually fought for Irish independence into someone who never had a good word to say about the country.

When people say that those civilians who served in the British forces during the War faced no issues when they returned, well, that's not entirely accurate. It may be the generality, but the reality was a lot more complex than the initial assertion suggested.

I think as in everything Anglo-Irish it's complicated and trying to judge how all the communities and returning servicemen fared would probably require one hell of a study. That's not to say he wasn't accurate in his view but if it's local feelings then that can change from community to community (and still does). My own families experience in British military ended after WW1, though a close family has had men serving (and dying) up until about a decade ago (though they kept that very quiet during the Troubles) and they never got any hostile reaction from anyone, though one of them can tell plenty of stories about the diplomatic efforts during the Troubles.

In reality I think there's no question that the Irish public opinion was while not "pro Nazi", was certainly not "Pro UK" at the time and for human reasons, the personal knowledge I have comes from grandparents on both sides, my Mum's mum was a die hard FF who thought Dev should have been made a Saint, and volunteered to help the Coastal Watch during the War, but to the day she died in the late 90's hated the UK and the British military, why... She and her family (the ones that served in WW1) were Catholic Nationalists from Belfast and left the North after Partition, neither she or her sisters ever forgave that. My Dad's dad was a hardcore FG who proudly stated he met Collins more than once, I once asked him about WW2 and he took me up to the window on his stairs (one of the terraced two up two down overlooking Cork on the North side his parents home before him) and asked me what I saw. I said Pana (Patrick's Street), and he told me he saw flames, as he and his family watched Cork burn....

I have no doubt that she would have made any returning serviceman's life hell, he I don't think so, he didn't hold the same anger. But both would have had very human reasons to feel how they felt.
 
once thing that has always puzzled me

I get the whole Ireland - UK beef, and i know the reasons why Ireland is'nt going to join the Allied cause for the good of Britain

But after 7/12/41 why did'nt they jump in then, they could have insisted on no UK or CW troops on Irish soil but took the $$$ from Uncle Sam - whatever price they charge would be worth it to get access to the treaty ports and possible airbases, anything to help close the gap

I think Churchill made such a suggestion at that time (think that was his "a nation once again bit" but I could be wrong), but I think at that stage the Cabinet didn't want to flip, again Neutrality was popular with the Irish public, there wasn't the political will to change, or be seen to be flipping.
 
once thing that has always puzzled me

I get the whole Ireland - UK beef, and i know the reasons why Ireland is'nt going to join the Allied cause for the good of Britain

But after 7/12/41 why did'nt they jump in then, they could have insisted on no UK or CW troops on Irish soil but took the $$$ from Uncle Sam - whatever price they charge would be worth it to get access to the treaty ports and possible airbases, anything to help close the gap

I saw a great post about this topic. I'll have to dig around to see if I can find it but the gist is that America had a terrible diplomat in Dublin who ham handedly tried to push Ireland into the Allied camp, spoiling relations between Ireland and the Allies.

Edit: Was actually on r/AskHistorians
 
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once thing that has always puzzled me

I get the whole Ireland - UK beef, and i know the reasons why Ireland is'nt going to join the Allied cause for the good of Britain

But after 7/12/41 why did'nt they jump in then, they could have insisted on no UK or CW troops on Irish soil but took the $$$ from Uncle Sam - whatever price they charge would be worth it to get access to the treaty ports and possible airbases, anything to help close the gap
In a word de Valera. He didn't change his mind, once he'd made it suffering badly from the the idée fixe. The poor relations between the Irish government and Gray and the US response to the Aiken mission were also factors.
 
In a word de Valera. He didn't change his mind, once he'd made it suffering badly from the the idée fixe. The poor relations between the Irish government and Gray and the US response to the Aiken mission were also factors.

Once asked my dad what Dev was like (he met him once at secondary), his response was interesting, "blind as a bat, and dumb as a rock". To be fair this was at the end of Dev's time as President and my Dad seems to make it one of his life's works to annoy as many FF leaders as possible (Bertie, Biffo and Micheál certainly got wound up by him)
 
I think as in everything Anglo-Irish it's complicated and trying to judge how all the communities and returning servicemen fared would probably require one hell of a study.

(And snips)

Which was why I took issue with the original statement that civilians returning from serving in the British Army faced no problems. Undoubtedly, the experience varied from place to place and from person to person. Some were undoubtedly welcomed back with open arms. Some were also regarded as having committed the greatest sin imaginable, being vile traitors who fought on the side of the Evil British.

Which sometimes amused him, remarking that he'd fought for Irish independence, and here he was, being called a traitor by people who'd done nothing to help in that Cause.
 
Once asked my dad what Dev was like (he met him once at secondary), his response was interesting, "blind as a bat, and dumb as a rock". To be fair this was at the end of Dev's time as President and my Dad seems to make it one of his life's works to annoy as many FF leaders as possible (Bertie, Biffo and Micheál certainly got wound up by him)
In his younger days he seemed to be smart enough, just utterly convinced he was right despite mere facts.
 
In a word de Valera. He didn't change his mind, once he'd made it suffering badly from the the idée fixe. The poor relations between the Irish government and Gray and the US response to the Aiken mission were also factors.

I don't agree. Neutrality had overwhelming public support even after the entry of the Americans and no alternate leader - not Mulchaly and not Cosgrave would have gone to war in Dev's place.
 
I don't agree. Neutrality had overwhelming public support even after the entry of the Americans and no alternate leader - not Mulchaly and not Cosgrave would have gone to war in Dev's place.

True enough, even though FF lost 10 seats in the '43 election they still remained the largest party at 67 TD's while FG lost 12 to end up with 32, with the rest spread out among the smaller parties/Indo's. FF still won over 550K of votes to FG's 307K, so it can't be aruged that Dev was doing something that didn't have public support.

Though to be fair I think we've all drifted from the OP?
 
It does seem that of all the neutral countries in the Second World War Ireland gets picked out as the worst betrayal. Reading contemporary commentary there's a sense that the UK was owed something by Ireland.
Honestly, I don't get why people were so surprised Ireland wasn't keen on joining the Allies.

Like, seriously, considering the Irish history in pretty recent memory with the UK, expecting them to ally is asking for trouble.
 
True enough, even though FF lost 10 seats in the '43 election they still remained the largest party at 67 TD's while FG lost 12 to end up with 32, with the rest spread out among the smaller parties/Indo's. FF still won over 550K of votes to FG's 307K, so it can't be aruged that Dev was doing something that didn't have public support.

Though to be fair I think we've all drifted from the OP?
Good points.

And while we might seem to have drifted from the OP, we are at a point where we know why Ireland couldn't join WW2 without a POD at least in the early 1930s and probably earlier.

So, are there any post 1923 PODs that could make Irish entry plausible?
 
Honestly, I don't get why people were so surprised Ireland wasn't keen on joining the Allies.

Like, seriously, considering the Irish history in pretty recent memory with the UK, expecting them to ally is asking for trouble.

As @white crowe and @RossN has said Ireland seems to be singled out, there was the Swiss and the Swedes, and Portugal and Spain, all of whom conducted themselves as they saw fit and as they judged their nation to need, yet it's Ireland that has the issue?
 
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