Ireland joins WW2 and reunifies

Anyone for a spot of Ethnic (well religious) Cleansing? It was pretty popular back then...
And that wouldn't have been that practical either -Nestle in Omagh was one of the main providers of powdered milk for the British forces and the mills of Omagh and Strabane making uniforms for the British forces and Moygashel at Dungannon making doped fabric for Wellington bombers. Nothing that couldn't have been sorted out over time -new factories and assisted moves for workforce but you would be talking post 1945 rather than immediately.
 
As I've said I think it's far more likely the people that were involved to some degree in the Treaty Talks had "Jack shit" faith in any UK Cabinet delivering a sell out of NI under any circumstances, particularly if it was a "credit" situation that would come to pass after WW2
Reading what was actually offered it seems to me that what was being offered was an honest assessment of what could be delivered. There was no pretence that NI was able to be handed over against it's will. Forcing the issue would launch Ireland back into a civil war worse than that it was still recovering from. More than 20 years later Wilson was threatening the Republic with abandoning NI if they interfered which scared them ***less then.
 

hipper

Banned
Yep, and Dev and the Cabinet knew that, hence why I think the offer was never a sincere one, or at least one that had any thought put into it.

Churchill offered to have a political union with France, now that was not thought out! the EU could have been formed in 1940.... there's a timeline in there.
 
As I've said, I don't think there was any large scale thinking on this at the time, I mean in 1940 it means adding a new list of defence commitments (Radar sets, planes, AA guns, most likely having to either deploy Commonwealth troops to secure the bases or upgrading the Irish Defence Forces, investments needed to return the ports to something useful (by this stage the main dock in Cobh may or may not have been destroyed and the larbour force that supported the RN in WW1 is gone), the transport infrastructure in the West upgraded if Coastal Command are going to be based), at the same time the knock on's in NI would have potentially significant impact on the industries...

Now yes there's the study that suggests over the duration of the war the Treaty Ports could have reduced merchant losses by around 10% and maybe knock on's in naval forces losses, but it does have huge burdens at the same time.
 
And that wouldn't have been that practical either -Nestle in Omagh was one of the main providers of powdered milk for the British forces and the mills of Omagh and Strabane making uniforms for the British forces and Moygashel at Dungannon making doped fabric for Wellington bombers. Nothing that couldn't have been sorted out over time -new factories and assisted moves for workforce but you would be talking post 1945 rather than immediately.
And it would be immensely controversial too. Evicting a couple of thousand white protestants close to home is far more important than allowing a couple of million brown heathens to stave in India after all.

Churchill offered to have a political union with France, now that was not thought out! the EU could have been formed in 1940.... there's a timeline in there.
There's several already.
 
And it would be immensely controversial too. Evicting a couple of thousand white protestants close to home is far more important than allowing a couple of million brown heathens to stave in India after all.
The Bengal famine is another outworking of the same mindset. Let us win the war first, then we can worry about incidental details later. Also an illustration of the "horror of statistics". The British were unwilling to take steps to relieve a famine but which would prolong the war for another year (Tube Alloys not yet successful in 1944 so no game changers at hand) where less than 1% of the population would die. Trouble was that in India, 0.8% of the population worked out at over three million people.
 
I tend to agree with the thread consensus that MacDonald's offer was far too thin for Dev or a hypothetical Cosgrave or Mulchaly government to realistically consider.

James Dillion maybe, but it would take a few twists to have had him become leader.
 
I tend to agree with the thread consensus that MacDonald's offer was far too thin for Dev or a hypothetical Cosgrave or Mulchaly government to realistically consider.

James Dillion maybe, but it would take a few twists to have had him become leader.

Going for understatement are we?
 
Heh.

That's the trouble with WW2 hypotheticals for Ireland. Basically the entire political mainstream would probably have made the same choices as Dev for the same reasons.

Yeah, you'd basically need to change the entire post 1922 evolution of the state imo to end up with major changes, by the time Dev and FF are elected to office is too late to change anything, it's either that or you have to break out the crazy theories like Sealion or Green to make a change.
 
Yeah, you'd basically need to change the entire post 1922 evolution of the state imo to end up with major changes, by the time Dev and FF are elected to office is too late to change anything, it's either that or you have to break out the crazy theories like Sealion or Green to make a change.

True.

One of these I'll have to work on that surviving Kevin O'Higgins as Ireland's Jan Smuts timeline...
 
True.

One of these I'll have to work on that surviving Kevin O'Higgins as Ireland's Jan Smuts timeline...

That could certainly be interesting alright, one of the things I would have been interested to see is if the '27/28 Naval Talks had ended up with the CnaG wishlist how that would have shaped Irish military planning/positions, though the RN counter suggestion would have been much more supportable (and still would have left the Irish Navy as something pre-46).
 
I don't think you get how badly England was regarded in much of Ireland. Yes, Nazis were bad, but England, oh, England....
What a shame Ireland wasn’t situated off the coast of a continental power of actual, rather than pretend, foreigners. Good ASB topic?
 
Like deserting your home to fight the bushfire endangering your neighbour’s house, which is between your house and the fire.

I think it's a lot more complicated than that, do you give an oath to defend your house or the neighbours house?

Huge numbers of Irish people worked in British industries without an issue during the war, huge number of Irish served in the British/Commonwealth militaries during the war (including even anti treaty IRA members) without issue. The problem comes when you have Irish Defence Forces personnel deserting to joined said military during the War. Now I'm not saying for a second that what happened to them and their families was right, but I do think a punishment was acceptable (either to those that were in before the War or those that joined and deserted during it), and the reason for that is as pointed out in this thread the UK had plans to invade and political support from some quarters to do so. Flip it around from "the Nazis", if the UK had invaded (which wasn't an impossibility no matter how stupid) would the posters still be saying it was right for those men to desert? Even with the massive national impact on Ireland such an event would have had?
 
I think it's a lot more complicated than that, do you give an oath to defend your house or the neighbours house?

Huge numbers of Irish people worked in British industries without an issue during the war, huge number of Irish served in the British/Commonwealth militaries during the war (including even anti treaty IRA members) without issue. The problem comes when you have Irish Defence Forces personnel deserting to joined said military during the War. Now I'm not saying for a second that what happened to them and their families was right, but I do think a punishment was acceptable (either to those that were in before the War or those that joined and deserted during it), and the reason for that is as pointed out in this thread the UK had plans to invade and political support from some quarters to do so. Flip it around from "the Nazis", if the UK had invaded (which wasn't an impossibility no matter how stupid) would the posters still be saying it was right for those men to desert? Even with the massive national impact on Ireland such an event would have had?
Perhaps these “deserters” weren’t waiting for the war to come to Ireland. Your hypothetical isn’t very compelling, BTW- why? So the RN could use (and pay the Irish government rent for) the Atlantic ports? Not exactly loot, plunder and eradication is it?
 
Perhaps these “deserters” weren’t waiting for the war to come to Ireland. Your hypothetical isn’t very compelling, BTW- why? So the RN could use (and pay the Irish government rent for) the Atlantic ports? Not exactly loot, plunder and eradication is it?

I'll ask you again then, what's the view of your nations military on Desertion?

And my view isn't compelling? Lets think that one through can we?
1. If the UK invades, then the Irish Army is going to fight however unsuccessful that would be, so Irish military personnel are going to die.
2. If the UK invades, Irish civilians are going to die (both from resisting an invasion and perhaps due to British retaliation which had occurred in the living history of those civilians).
3. Does an invading UK just let the Irish Government (which they weren't exactly fond of, see Dev and Churchill's relationship) just continue on even if said Government is hostile after you know being invaded, or does the UK exert force in that regard as well, as argued by the Unionists of NI.
4. If the UK takes the ports, then Ireland becomes a legitimate target for attack by Germany, given that the UK failed to adequately defend Belfast during the first bombing raids there, the assumption that an invasion force would provide adequate defences for Ireland outside of their own needs, seems unlikely (and remember Cork the second city of Ireland is just a few minutes flying from Cobh).
5. I would highly doubt that a UK that felt the need to invade and occupy areas of Ireland would feel any obligation to pay anything either during or after the war in regards to using Irish Ports (they didn't when they held they from memory post '22).
6. I would also highly doubt that if after an invasion and usage of them during WW2, that in 1945 the UK would have just said "cheers lads, we're out of here", which again might be a small issue for Ireland, and even if they did the Anglo-Irish relationship would be beyond toxic for at least another generation.

I find it a bit difficult to assume given how bad the living history of Anglo-Irish relations were in the period that an invasion is going to end well.
 
It's not just that, as I've said there was no such issue for any of those that joined the UK industries or the Commonwealth forces as volunteers, it was only those that deserted that were treated in such manner, and as I said even decades later those surviving members of the DF of the time are still highly opposed to the actions of Shatter in that regard. Like many things involving Anglo-Irish relations, it's complicated.

Actually, that's not quite true. My grandfather was one of those who had no connection with the Irish Establishment in any size, shape, or form. He decided that since Ireland wasn't going to fight, he would go to Britain and enlist, which he duly did. After the war, he was told in no uncertain terms that he wasn't welcome back in Ireland.

Much of what my grandfather said about his activities in WW2 (or, indeed, in anything whatsoever) needed to be taken with a large pinch of salt. That said, the bitterness he felt at being ostracised was genuine, and it didn't arise out of nothing.

Clearly, anecdotes are simply a single data point, but it is not accurate to say that "there was no such issue" for such as he. There was.
 
Actually, that's not quite true. My grandfather was one of those who had no connection with the Irish Establishment in any size, shape, or form. He decided that since Ireland wasn't going to fight, he would go to Britain and enlist, which he duly did. After the war, he was told in no uncertain terms that he wasn't welcome back in Ireland.

Much of what my grandfather said about his activities in WW2 (or, indeed, in anything whatsoever) needed to be taken with a large pinch of salt. That said, the bitterness he felt at being ostracised was genuine, and it didn't arise out of nothing.

Clearly, anecdotes are simply a single data point, but it is not accurate to say that "there was no such issue" for such as he. There was.

Was that from his local community or from sources from the Government? I only ask because without question Irish communities can and do hold grudges with nothing to do with any "government" involvement (for example my uncle's community ostracised one of their own to the day he died as he served in the Pro Treaty side while it was an Anti area, and this was even after he designed and developed the entire water infrastructure of the area). The Pardon given by FG was for those that faced the ostracisation from "the Establishment" as you say.
 
Top