iraqi airforce in 1980s

Great idea
Vietnamese allegedly sold Iran f5 and could lease pilots to iraq

While the Vietnamese did quite well (considering their forces and the overall circumstances) against the USAF over Vietnam it is unclear to me how well they would do flying strike missions against the Iranians.

My guess is the presence of veteran North Vietnamese pilots in the Iraqi Air Force may cause the Iranains to de emphaize flying deep strike missions against Iraq but not much else changes. Edit to add: Perhaps the Vietnamese also provide ground crews, GCI radar operators, SAM crews etc so they can more or less replicate the air defence system they used against the Americans ?

While some of the (former) South Vietnamese pilots would have had experience flying CAS type missions over South Vietnam, I doubt many of them would have had much experience flying air to air missions. They also would have needed to be trained to fly the avalaible Iraqi air craft.

Maybe in the long run the Vietnamese pilots can ramp up their skills to the point where they could fly deep strike missions against the Iranians but it is unclear to me who would train them how to do this ?

It also occurs to me that North Korea might be interested in having an opportunity for their pilots to practice flying against forces equipped with modern American made equipment. If North Korea acquired the SU24 and had pilots who had experience flying them against Iran, things might get interesting later on :). But the same underlying training issue likely remains.
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
Yes that does make sense.

Edit to add, buying aircraft such as the Su24 without also having pilots who are fully trained to use them does seem a bit odd, but I suppose it made sense at the time to nations involved.
Absolutely a wise policy on part of the Soviets
Look at how Egyptian, chinese and other took their equipment and betrayed them.
 
Absolutely a wise policy on part of the Soviets
Look at how Egyptian, chinese and other took their equipment and betrayed them.
Perhaps...

My understanding is that the complex equipment the Soviets supplied to client states was already downgraded from the equipment the Soviets (and likely the Warsaw Pact ?) used.

All in all I believe the Soviets would have been better off if their client states had been able to get better use from the downgraded equipment they were apparently provided with.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Perhaps...

My understanding is that the complex equipment the Soviets supplied to client states was already downgraded from the equipment the Soviets (and likely the Warsaw Pact ?) used.

All in all I believe the Soviets would have been better off if their client states had been able to get better use from the downgraded equipment they were apparently provided with.
But Vietnamese, Yugoslav, indians and Cubans to an extent performed much better with the same weapons than their middle eastern allies
 
But Vietnamese, Yugoslav, indians and Cubans to an extent performed much better with the same weapons than their middle eastern allies
True... But comments have been made in this thread that imply that Soviets wouldn't have trained their customers for aircraft such as the Su24 to the same standards as Soviet pilots expected to face NATO.

If Soviet supplied su24's had for example successfully flown counter air missions against the Iranians I believe it would have significantly enhanced Soviet prestiege.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
True... But comments have been made in this thread that imply that Soviets wouldn't have trained their customers for aircraft such as the Su24 to the same standards as Soviet pilots expected to face NATO.
Ofcourse but then their opponents are not as well trained as NATO either
I've heard saddam hired Indians to train his forces ?
 
I'm sure many arab pilots were great too but as institutions western airforces had the edge.
In my view pre revolutionary Iran was in a different league than many other Arab nations. They probably needed to be as they considered the Soviet Union to be a possible opponent.

My understanding is much of the advanced eqipment purchased when the the Shaw was in power by Iran for their Air Force was purchased for possible use against the Soviets. (Not client states equipped with so called "monkey models.")
 

Khanzeer

Banned
In my view pre revolutionary Iran was in a different league than many other Arab nations. They probably needed to be as they considered the Soviet Union to be a possible opponent.

My understanding is much of the advanced eqipment purchased when the the Shaw was in power by Iran for their Air Force was purchased for possible use against the Soviets. (Not client states equipped with so called "monkey models.")
In some ways yes ... by 1978 they had 150 F4 and 70+ f14 that is a better fighter force than all the VVS PVO regiments stationed in southern USSR
 
In some ways yes ... by 1978 they had 150 F4 and 70+ f14 that is a better fighter force than all the VVS PVO regiments stationed in southern USSR
They also had Chieftain Tanks, helicopter gun ships, had advanced US warships on order etc...

Also IMHO during the Iran / Iraq war the Iranian Air Force seemed quite adept in using what they had despite the lack of support from the U.S.

As I understand things the Air Force was realitivley western in certain respects, and as others have mentioned some of the key staff were apparently jailed after the revolution and subsequently released to fight in the Iran / Iraq war.
 
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They still weren't full Soviet Spec. Nobody got full spec aircraft except the USSR
To be fair, the U.S. also had / has a certain amount of U.S. only equipment as well.

Edit to add:
The apparent ban on F22 exports is probably the most notable example of this.

I also seem to recall reading in the late 1980's / early 1990's that the software in certain U.S. spec radars for example differed from the software in radars to sold to at least some (if not all ?) NATO nations.
 
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In some ways yes ... by 1978 they had 150 F4 and 70+ f14 that is a better fighter force than all the VVS PVO regiments stationed in southern USSR
My understanding was the Iranians were also somewhat motivated by the need to counter Mig 25 over flights. Presumably they were also concerned about the capabilities of air craft such as the Tu 22, Su 24 etc and wanted to be able to intercept them as well.

My understanding is that Iran also received radars, Sam's etc as well.
 
Was there a huge difference in WP and USSR standard mig21s ?
I don't know about the Mig 21, but I do recall the U.S. went to some effort to obtain one or more Soviet Spec Mig 29(s ?)from a former Soviet Repulbic. Apparently they were somewhat different than the ones the West Germans inherited from East Germany. Although I also seem to recall reading the Soviets removed a few sub systems (maybe IFF ?) from the East German Mig 29's before they left East Germany.
 
It also occurs to me that North Korea might be interested in having an opportunity for their pilots to practice flying against forces equipped with modern American made equipment. If North Korea acquired the SU24 and had pilots who had experience flying them against Iran, things might get interesting later on :). But the same underlying training issue likely remains.
I dunno, North Korea was probably the most important supplier to Iran. They sold them some locally made versions of Soviet arms and also funneled even larger amounts Chinese arms and supplies there. It was lucrative, especially the Iranian oil. No way they'd turn on them.
 
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